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Steph
October 14 2014, 09:01:19 PM
General Chat thread was kind of a shitshow, let's see if we can do this properly with a second try.

Brief summary from r/KotakuInAction (http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2gab2v/another_long_timeline_of_gamergate/).


PREVIOUSLY I.E. HISTORICAL / RELEVANT INFORMATION

Zoe Quinn helps create a Startup, Dames Make Games in Toronto
Zoe Quinn Creates Depression Quest in 2012, using Twine, with Patrick Lindsey (Writing/Editing) and Isaac Shankler (music)
Word of mouth comments on metafilter, 4chan’s /r9k/, and /r/IndieGaming about the game Depression Quest on Launch, February 14th, 2013. limited attention is received.
Zoe Attends Indiecade Nightgames festival with Depression Quest
Zoe Quinn Decides to pull Depression Quest from Steam Greenlight Program after receiving harassment, threats and attacks, pointing to Wizardchan. December 13th 2013.
Allegations against Wizardchan are debunked, Collected 'dox' phone and addresses are proven to be false.
2 weeks after removing the game, Resubmits into Greenlight Program to be approved on January 7th 2014
Yasmeena “Maya” Felix Kramer, who works as SilverString Media’s PR, attacks TheFineYoungCapitalist's (TFYC) site, obtains and posts information about the organisers of the competition, while in contact with Zoe Quinn on facebook.
Zoe Breaks up with Eron Gjoni, though the breakup is perturbed by Zoe’s disclosed Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) with evident depressive and suicidal, and manipulative episodes throughout the post.
Depression Quest is approved, just after news of Robin Willam's suicide, Zoe Debates if she should release the game on twitter and Tumblr posts. Asks for donations to go to iFred as acknowledgement.
Depression Quest is released on Steam.



ZOEPOST

Eron Gjoni 's breakup post with Zoe Quinn
Other Forums pick up Eron’s post .
The “internet hate machine” taking notice of Zoe Quinn again. timeline here
Matt / SillySladar of The Fine Young Capitalists comments in a reddit post (thread since deleted) that his site has been DDOS attacked and ‘doxxed’ by Zoe Quinn (Maya Kramer) over libellous comments she made and misunderstood about the competition in March this year.
In the same thread, people from Wizardchan had collected logs of chat at the time that Zoe Quinn accused them of harassing her.
A youtube DMCA takedown of a Video repost of Eron’s post by MundaneMatt, coming from 'zoe quinn'
TotalBiscuit replying to the use of the DMCA to take down video content.
Several (9) Forums having threads and posts censored. The most prolific being reddit, which is still banning users based on keywords in the Games and Gaming subreddits.


THEN (EVENTS OF THE 19TH AUGUST TO 30TH AUGUST),

Calls to blogs, games news sites and others for coverage
Phil Fish starts to abuse people on twitter, cancels Fez 2, Projects
Polytron Dropbox is hacked, business files are stolen
Phil Fish abuses person that accuses Zoe Quinn of abusing him at Phil Fish’s wedding on twitter, abuses TotalBiscuit
Phil Fish announces closing and sale of Polytron
Stephen Totillo of Kotaku debunks claim of Nathan Grayson writing about Zoe Quinn after relationship. Does not seem to be aware that the window of time is 1 day from the article being posted, to the relationship starting.
Lordkat, JonTron discuss the issue on their games video blog sites.
Donations to TFYC reach the point where they can choose an avatar, Vivian James is selected by /v/.
Eron Gjoni posts AMA on reddit /r/Drama. replies regarding Zoe Quinn, Maya Kramer are brought up.
Anita Sarkeesian releases 7th video in kickstarter funded Tropes of Women in Video Games series, on Hitman Absolution.
Joss Whedon tweets to femfreq / Anita Sarkeesian giving his support
Adam Baldwin tweets a video link, starting #GamerGate
Patreon Account of Zoe Quinn, gains over 500 supporters.
TFYC IndieGoGo site is hacked, closed, and then reopened.
JonTron replies to TimSchafer saying he didn’t like the message of Anita Sarkeesian’s video, is attacked by Tim Schafer of DoubleFine, Appears on co-optional podcast later that day.
#IStandwithJonTron tag is hijacked on twitter, allegedly organised on SomethingAwful forums.
Anita Sarkeesian receives Death threats via twitter, Asks for donations to FemFreq. forced to leave home for safety.
Zoe Quinn responds to Adam Baldwin on twitter.
Patricia Hernandez of kotaku revises her articles disclosing relationship with the game developer she had a relationship with, according to their new policy.
14 Similar Stories about misogynistic gamers appear on multiple sites on the same day.
Games news sites start to comment on Gamer Culture / Reactions
Various Petitions come out ‘For’ gamers, ‘For’ women, ‘For’ ethical Standards.
Ex staff member of Silverstring talks about Maya Felix Kramer’s behavior on Eron's AMA
Zoe Quinn, Maya Kramer Attend PAX Prime
PAX discussion comes under fire when people talk about bloggers in the panel instead of journalists or press.
September
Other tags appear, #NotAllWomen and #NotYourShield.
Donations start to come in to the TheFineYoungCapitalists Developer program, including $6000+ from 4chan, to create Vivian James (Vidya Games), A caricature female gamer or Moe Chan / gijinka (ie a ‘cute’ anthropomorphism/mascot, e.g. OS-tan).
Christina Hoff Summers, of AEI talks publicly for gamers, links to breitbart article & the economist, is called out by Adam Weinstein of Gawker.
Jayd3Fox produces a mock video "Professional Victims vs Gaming Communites", is harassed online.
TheFineYoungCapitalists discuss a truce with Zoe Quinn and Silverstring Media, who represent Zoe Quinn about the TFYC program, the agreement falls through.
Allegations of the IGF chairman Brandon Boyer and judges for the IGF competition, being friends with and linked to SilverString Media when Zoe Quinn’s ‘Depression Quest’ and ‘Papers, Please’ won awards. IGF discusses the judging process 3 days later in response to questions about how the process works.
Zoe Quinn Posts IRC logs of 4chan, declares #GameOverGate with storify link of Alleged harassment and organisation.
a new hastag #GamerGateau about game themed cakes.
Allegations of racketeering and Indiecade/IGF awards for Fez/Polytron funding
Chris Grant of Polygon, admits to blocking 1800 twitter users from his twitter feed, including other journalists. Then removes the list within hours.
Storify content is debunked by MundaneMatt and others as disingenuous and implausible, showing out of context screenshots.
Examiner article notes that Tyler Malka (NeoGAF) supports the hashtag #GameEthics, to be a spillover from #GamerGate, proposed to remove '4chan involvement' from issues of integrity and independence in games journalism, with limited success.
Tyler Malka, Owner of NeoGAF then proceeds to abuse someone on twitter the same day.
#writeakotakuarticle hashtag is started.
Nathan Grayson interview with Blizzard goes off track discussing women in their MoBA game, Gets pulled into #gamergate discussion in social media.
Zoe Quinn links to an article on wikipediocracy, where they discusss people editing Zoe Quinn’s Wikipedia page, the article names all of the editors individually, citing photos, discussion of the editor’s reddit posting history, analysing their posting history, including the discussion of a transgender minor, and the high school they attend.
Zoe Quinn seeks to mediate discussion using a new tag, #OpenTheGates, with limited success.
TFYC IndieGoGo is fully financed at $65,000
Vivian James Platformer Prototype is created and playable online.
TheNerdist releases a video about GamerGate, gets called out by MundaneMatt.
Journalists investigate Anita Sarkeesian’s police report, assumptions are that it's missing due to the FBI being involved from a former photoshopped CP used in earlier online harassment.
Jennifer Hale (voice actor for Bioware, Mass Effect & ~300 Games/TV Shows) talks about this issue on Marketplace Tech Report on ‘Internet Slowdown Day’ for Net Neutrality awareness. zoe responds in /r/SRSGaming thread about hearing this interview.
Joe Rogan wants to interview Adam Baldwin on their podcast.



Naturally, there's several different narratives going around, so as always do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

Anyway, last thing of note I heard was Brianna Wu cancelled her appearance on Radio Nero at the last minute (https://soundcloud.com/radio_nero/series-1-episode-4-threats-and-harassment). Milo had cleared this week's roster for her - in addition to a laundry list of other accommodations he'd made, see the link - and consequently had to scrub the whole episode.

cullnean
October 14 2014, 09:35:03 PM
Good luck peace out

Tapadong

Keorythe
October 14 2014, 09:45:55 PM
Some more timelines and details

The original Zoepost which start this whole thing. Why it's relevant? This is now being called "revenge porn" by the media and an attempt to slander her for the sake of slandering. The post reads more like a Rolling Stone article and is packed full of timelines, abuse, manipulation, and proof of said deeds in the form of screenshots and logs. It also is where the term "5 Guys Burgers and Fries" first comes to life when Quinn is admitting everything to his face.
http://thezoepost.wordpress.com/

Next is a timeline of events that led up to the entire thing. Click on the block arrows in the bottom right corner of the bubble for more details and links to the particular incident.

This starts at the very beginning and Quinns initial involvement. It also makes known how she drew the ire of the internet long before the Zoepost was made.
http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry/336432/The-GamerGate-Chronicles#vars!date=2013-12-04_12:25:06!

Claims of harassment by Wizardchan. This is a website for clinically depressed men who are also Disney fans. You must be a virgin to have the title "Wizard".
http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry/336432/The-GamerGate-Chronicles#vars!date=2013-12-12_10:36:31!

Wizardchan responds with a large amount of details and screenshots about the entire thing.
http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry/336432/The-GamerGate-Chronicles#vars!date=2014-04-11_04:08:17!

The Fine Young Capitalists enter the scene
http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry/336432/The-GamerGate-Chronicles#vars!date=2014-08-11_14:15:01!

Things take off in a large way. Mundane Matt makes the first related video and details the corruption of games journalism. The timeline becomes infused with many events as GamerGate is born later and explodes into action on both sides. You'll see how specific names become involved and how they become irrelevant within the scheme of things. The latest post ends at Oct 12th (as of this writing) and is still being updated regularly.
http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry/336432/The-GamerGate-Chronicles#vars!date=2014-08-16_05:44:28!

ValorousBob
October 15 2014, 12:48:08 AM
Can I get a TL;DR of why I/we should care?

Kanv
October 15 2014, 08:00:27 PM
The OP is missing the oart where the 'gaming journalism' sites involved near-simultaneously put out the "end of gamers" articles.

Alistair
October 16 2014, 02:09:08 PM
Issue hits "mainstream" media, CNN:


Behind the furor over #Gamergate


By Brandon Griggs, CNN

updated 9:00 AM EDT, Thu October 16, 2014

(CNN) -- The threat of violence against feminist and gaming critic Anita Sarkeesian, which led her to cancel a speaking appearance this week at Utah State University, has refocused attention on a recent and often-misunderstood debate.

It's called #Gamergate, with or without the hashtag, and it has triggered ongoing, online barrages between a wide variety of disgruntled people: video gamers, feminists, Internet trolls, scholars, misogynists, gaming-industry journalists and almost anyone else with web access and an ax to grind.

"It's been the talk of video game professionals for the past two months," gaming critic Evan Narcisse said. "The culture wars that ... hit other creative media (are) hitting video games now."

Even to those involved, #Gamergate is a confusing, unwieldy topic. So let's try to simplify it for you.

What is #Gamergate?

At its most basic level, it's a heated debate over journalistic integrity, the definition of video games and the identity of those who play them.

On one side are the so-called hardcore gamers, most of them male, who make and play adrenaline-fueled games such as the "Call of Duty" shooter series. On another side are a new wave of gaming enthusiasts, many of them women, who are making and playing games that don't involve a shootout, a chase or sometimes even a quest of any kind.

Then there are the others (see above) who smell a fight and have piled on. The vitriol, much of it aimed against women, has spilled from the Internet into the physical world. In recent months several women in the gaming industry say they received rape and death threats so specific they were forced to leave their homes.

Some gamers have adopted "Gamergate" as the term for a loosely defined movement defending hardcore games against criticisms from feminists and others.

How did it start?

The roots of the dispute go back years. But the current debate began in late August, when Sarkeesian released the latest of her videos called "Tropes vs. Women," in which she critiques games that portray women as victims, ornamental eye candy and other archetypes.

About the same time, game designer Zoe Quinn was attacked online by an ex-boyfriend who alleged in lengthy blog posts that she cheated on him with a journalist from gaming-news site Kotaku to further her career.

Quinn denied the claim, and Kotaku's investigation found no wrongdoing. But furious gamers took to Twitter, Reddit and other places to complain about ethical lapses in gaming journalism. And both Quinn and Sarkeesian found themselves subject to violent online threats.

Actor Adam Baldwin, best known for roles in "Full Metal Jacket" and the "Firefly" TV series, was credited with coining the #Gamergate hashtag later that month on Twitter. Opponents who feel the harassment of women has gone too far have countered with #StopGamergate2014, which was trending Wednesday.

The arguments on both sides have expanded to include such other topics as free speech and perceived media bias against core gamers.

Why are people so angry?

The gaming universe has expanded beyond consoles in recent years to include players -- many of them women -- of casual and social games such as "FarmVille" and "Candy Crush." According to one survey, 48% of gamers are now female.

More women also are entering gaming as developers or game reviewers. And increasingly they're speaking out about what they perceive as sexism in the industry.

"For 30 years now video games have really been perceived as a boys' club. You've had video games made by men, for men," game designer Brianna Wu said this week. "And I think in 2014, when almost half of the video game players are women ... you're seeing some very insecure guys feeling threatened by that and lashing out."

Many male gamers, of course, say they are horrified by the recent harassment of women. Others, though, say that feminist attacks on games are akin to censorship and they are tired of being lectured to by politically correct "social justice warriors."

"There are now two, bitterly opposed, factions in the industry. Journalists and activists, who care more about gender politics than the video games they are supposed to be reporting on, and gamers, mocked, derided and bullied... but unbowed," wrote Milo Yiannopoulos in a September 1 Breitbart.com column titled "Feminist Bullies Tearing the Video Game Industry Apart."

Can we resolve this?

Maybe, but it will take time. The Internet is an unruly place.

Just last weekend, Wu said she fled her Boston home after receiving threats on Twitter.

As with any vast and diverse group, it will be difficult to get video gamers to agree on any strictures on their art form or community. But the ongoing threats against female gamers appear to be rallying support to the #StopGamergate side.

On Wednesday the leading trade group for the video game industry weighed in.

"Threats of violence and harassment are wrong," said a spokesman for the Entertainment Software Association in a statement sent to The Washington Post. "They have to stop. There is no place in the video game community -- or our society -- for personal attacks and threats."

Ultimately, everyone will benefit by trying to defuse tensions between the two sides. And if gaming executives perceive that the treatment of female gamers reflects poorly on their industry, they may have no choice.

Irrelephant
October 16 2014, 02:57:24 PM
Probably the first reasonable article on this subject i have read: http://reason.com/archives/2014/10/12/gamergate-part-i-sex-lies-and-gender-gam

It's like written by a actual journalist, doing research and stuff and with sources. :o

Interesting link from that article: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s644c0

On the other spectrum of journalism:

Brianna Wu and 8chan founder on huffpost: http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/gamergate-and-sexism-and-misogyny-in-video-game-culture-/5437df2b78c90a43d9000be8

Wu seems to milk this one for all that it's worth.

Keorythe
October 16 2014, 07:43:31 PM
GamerGate makes the front of the Huffington Post.

HuffPo live makes its first live video including Brianna Wu (harassed dev), the founder of 8chan, and Erik Kaine (Forbes) named "Sexism and Misogyny in Video Game Culture".

Wu is given more speaking time than the other two combined. (9m22s vs 2m57s & 3m46s) and at one point declares GamerGate worse than child pornography.

http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/gamergate-and-sexism-and-misogyny-in-video-game-culture-/5437df2b78c90a43d9000be8

This first feed quickly goes viral as a slugmatch between the three and the comments section blows up for a full 24hrs to an extent that HuffPo realizes they're on to something bigger than thought. This leads to a follow up with the "Girls of GamerGate" live feed which debuts 3 pro-GamerGate women.

Georgina Young @georgieonthego (Saga, Japan) Staff Writer at Gamesided
Jennie Bharaj @jenniebharaj (Vancouver, Canada) YouTuber; Gamer
Jemma Morgan @ShuluuMoo (London, United Kingdom) Gamer



http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/gamergate-and-women-in-video-game-culture/543c686878c90a71ff000157

Despite the moderator attempting to push the "equal treatment of women" angle, the 3 women calmly explain how that has nothing to do with GamerGate, about the formation of GamerGate, and the reasons they support it. They also point out how the opposition has been pushing the "equality" angle as the focus and it's faults by doing so which gets the moderator a bit flustered. Sexism, feminism, LGBT, and even the term SJW (which the moderator finds offensive) are discussed.

More HuffPo lives may be planned in the future. CBCNews (Canada) has started talks with Jennie Bharaj to discuss the subject as well after seeing the HuffPo live stream.


These videos add to a long list of women in GamerGate videos that have been created since the initial hash tag was created.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNpTmEGw2J4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y419veD7M9w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjdiC2ednok
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIYBgBdnYjc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCr5f9GA2P4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUiUc1ZtDdo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjpQwcxmMKk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9-y1diqE2Q

Aea
October 16 2014, 11:23:23 PM
I went ahead and watched that first video. Here are my impressions:

- Posting people's public information is not acceptable.
- You have two morons arguing about the law they don't understand.
- Brianna Wu seems to be exceptionally hyperbolic and paranoid.

QuackBot
October 17 2014, 12:00:14 AM
I went ahead and watched that first video. Here are my impressions:

- Posting people's public information is not acceptable.
- You have two morons arguing about the law they don't understand.
- Brianna Wu seems to be exceptionally hyperbolic and paranoid.
My video is up.

Steph
October 17 2014, 03:59:18 AM
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/848/629/ed4.jpg

:psyblown:

Nicholai Pestot
October 17 2014, 12:56:49 PM
I haven't had much time to look at this but can it be confirmed that this is mostly an argument between

-A group of people with no lives who spend too much time socialising on the internet echo-chambers of their choice

and

-A group of people with no lives who spend too much time socialising on the internet echo-chambers of their choice


finally reaching the critical mass necessary for it to boil over into public perception?

whispous
October 17 2014, 01:00:01 PM
My problem with GamerGate is that the news media has picked these false feminists' side in a battle between two awful sets of worthless people.

Dark Flare
October 17 2014, 01:13:23 PM
Video games are so sexist and sizeist, the male protagonists are always 6 feet wide and built like trains and they always pick on the geeky computer nerd side character.

But I'm not going to cry about it.

Because I'm not a woman.

Itiken
October 17 2014, 04:07:36 PM
Gamergate in one image:
http://i.imgur.com/82TT47t.png

Timaios
October 17 2014, 04:28:41 PM
I think discussion on the topic might not be feasible until perhaps a year/two from now on (but still I appreciate the effort; "good luck, peace out"). As for now, I think gamers in general (whatever imaginary side we may have) could make a general effort to try to avoid people getting harassed or their life threatened and having to flee their homes (whatever the might have caused the harassment).

However, I wanted to make this post because I recently read this, and found it quite interesting:

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2hgv5x/veteran_dev_saying_ama_here/

(I actually read the most of the AMA and got some answers as to why, for example, some GG advocates don't want to form an organized consumer advocacy group etc. There's some bits of good discussion that went on, so you all might find it interesting as well.)

Edit: Steph, I think you write well and I've seen you have very civil discussion. However, your OP lacks a question you'd like us to discuss, it's just a timeline of events (as is Keorythe's post below). What would you want to be discussed in this thread?

Itiken
October 17 2014, 11:12:40 PM
If this truly is the "serious version" of the GG thread we all deserve, then I expect it to be full of serious discussion about the serious matters raised - eg investigating corruption within the Games journalism industry.

Blogs, links, journalism.

Go.

I was reading through - the "balanced piece" linked above (edit incoming) bbut hit this paragraph and gave up.


I do have personal experience with the gamers' mortal enemies, the so-called "social justice warriors," to know they can be a highly toxic Internet presence. Those who voice their loathing of "the SJWs" are not simply talking about people sympathetic to socially progressive causes but about cultist zealots who enforce the party line with the fervor of Mao's Red Guards, though luckily without the real-life power.

fuck it Gamerwhatever is whatever you want - if you can even parse this sort of shit without some kind of aneurysm you deserve all the 'mainstream media attention' you get


oh found the ref:

Probably the first reasonable article on this subject i have read: http://reason.com/archives/2014/10/12/gamergate-part-i-sex-lies-and-gender-gam

It's like written by a actual journalist, doing research and stuff and with sources.

Like all other 'rsonable articles' what you menat to say was:

"here is a post that agree's with my view on the whole thing and you are stupid if you think otherwise because the author provides FACTS"

enjoy them

peace out

pps i'd liek to echo this:


Edit: Steph, I think you write well and I've seen you have very civil discussion. However, your OP lacks a question you'd like us to discuss, it's just a timeline of events. What would you want to be discussed in this thread?

Steph
October 18 2014, 12:14:47 AM
Alright, sure - it was my hope that we could discuss GamerGate without requiring a formal, rigid list of topics but if y'all think that would be helpful then let's put one together.

Since I consider myself pro-GG, I don't know that I'm the best person to present a list of things to talk about - such a list would reflect my own biases, and I believe for any useful discussion to occur that such a list needs to be as neutral as possible.

Suggestions?

Irrelephant
October 18 2014, 01:11:25 AM
I was reading through - the "balanced piece" linked above (edit incoming) bbut hit this paragraph and gave up.


I do have personal experience with the gamers' mortal enemies, the so-called "social justice warriors," to know they can be a highly toxic Internet presence. Those who voice their loathing of "the SJWs" are not simply talking about people sympathetic to socially progressive causes but about cultist zealots who enforce the party line with the fervor of Mao's Red Guards, though luckily without the real-life power.

fuck it Gamerwhatever is whatever you want - if you can even parse this sort of shit without some kind of aneurysm you deserve all the 'mainstream media attention' you get


Or you could realize that most journalists like using fancy words and skip to the meat...



oh found the ref:

Probably the first reasonable article on this subject i have read: http://reason.com/archives/2014/10/12/gamergate-part-i-sex-lies-and-gender-gam

It's like written by a actual journalist, doing research and stuff and with sources.

Like all other 'rsonable articles' what you menat to say was:

"here is a post that agree's with my view on the whole thing and you are stupid if you think otherwise because the author provides FACTS"

enjoy them

peace out


> shits up first page with 5km jpeg
> asks for hard evidence oozing with sarcasm
> can't read past the intro of an actually quite balanced and researched article
> instead throws temper tantrum without any counter arguments

How can you expect anyone to have a "serious" discussion with you? If you are really super srs, how about you put that image in a fkn spoiler, read that article from start to finish, check some of the sources and than we can actually have a discussion?

relephant:

518493259589750784

Itiken
October 18 2014, 07:29:24 AM
How can you expect anyone to have a "serious" discussion with you? If you are really super srs, how about you put that image in a fkn spoiler, read that article from start to finish, check some of the sources and than we can actually have a discussion?

OK lets break it down shall we? (and i've even spoilered the image ebcause you seem to be upset)

1. I read the article. Well. i skimread it. It's practically identical to all the other 'pro' pieces out there.
2. It is pretty simple to pull a article from 'the other side' out, post it claiming 'absolute journalism by a journalist'
Lazy coverage of Gamergate is only feeding this abusive campaign (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/16/gamergate-abuse-feminist-new-york-times-anita-sarkeesian) There you go.

now you don't have to agree with it and I don't expect you, Kereothe (i can never spell that guy) or so on to at all. What i expect is to have a few lines you dislike picked up on, straw-manned to fuck then the entire piece/side/article dismissed because it's on the wrong side. The echochamber as it's been so aptly put has become so all-emcompasing and the sides so polarised that any post from 'the wrong side' is wrong.

Essentially, everything that can be said at this point has been said. until either side starts doing anything actually new, eg GG doing real journalism about the ethics thing / or the other lot doing whatever they are expected to do, then you may as well jsut read the other thread, ingest the sides/articles/posts and save yourself some effort.

You claim to want to have a serious balanced discussion, linking in your own words, a 'quite balanced' article that right from the offset paints anyone on 'the other side' as a psycho.....


I do have personal experience with the gamers' mortal enemies, the so-called "social justice warriors," to know they can be a highly toxic Internet presence. Those who voice their loathing of "the SJWs" are not simply talking about people sympathetic to socially progressive causes but about cultist zealots who enforce the party line with the fervor of Mao's Red Guards, though luckily without the real-life power.

The few paragraphs below that feel accurate but biased, and i disagree with almost all of the 4 conclusion points.

my personal opinion is the entire thing si a shitty, bitchy mess and the best thing to do is roll it all up, stick it in a drum and seal it in 200 cubic meters of concrete and drop it into the earth's core. Take what lessons from it YOU want to and move on.
Does that cover you up?

bonus content:

It’s time for reasonable people to pull away. To form something else. To take everything they’ve learned about agitation and protest, and apply it in a very different way. Don’t have all this on your conscience.

We need to create an industry in which people can question practices and conventions, but also where all are welcome and safe. For a start, however, we need to create an industry in which, whatever you think of their views, people don't get chased out of their homes. (ed)

Itiken
October 18 2014, 07:33:00 AM
Alright, sure - it was my hope that we could discuss GamerGate without requiring a formal, rigid list of topics but if y'all think that would be helpful then let's put one together.

Sounds good to me.



Since I consider myself pro-GG, I don't know that I'm the best person to present a list of things to talk about - such a list would reflect my own biases, and I believe for any useful discussion to occur that such a list needs to be as neutral as possible.

Interesting question. By 'Pro-GG' I presume you mean 'i support investigating and exposing corruption / journalism ethics issues' correct?

Can i ask a counter-question (To Steph): i often read - eg in the article irrelephant linked, about the "anti-GG side". What would you consider 'anti-GG' to be in light of the above?

There is a lot of nonsense being written on both sides of this - now - to me this however is what i would describe is "abalances / reasonable" quote - but to the other i'd assume it's propagana / nonsense / plain wrong.


I don’t think that everyone who uses Gamergate is evil, but moderates need to look at what is being done under, or within spitting distance of, its banner. Lives are being ruined and the world’s media is looking at gamers, just at a time when the medium was being taken seriously, and it is seeing its prejudices realised. Gamergate was front-page news in the New York Times when Sarkeesian had to cancel a talk over threats of a “massacre” (also dismissed as a “false flag” by Gamergate supporters); Cellan-Jones wrote on the BBC’s site that while he wouldn’t pick over the rights and wrongs of Gamergate (for the BBC is assiduous in not taking any sides in any debate),

“a couple of things are clear. It started with attacks on a female developer and the journalists she knew, and has given rise to a whole lot more viciousness, most of it aimed at women who dare to raise their heads above the parapet.”

Discuss (in the form of context not content)

Finally (really finally almost):
Is there any hope that a post with "serious concerns regrading the gamergate movement" would even be parsed/discussed instead of being snipped and dismissed. If so i'll put it together, if not i'll follow my own advice from page1 and just let the whole thing die.

Keorythe
October 18 2014, 10:38:57 AM
The funny thing about the anti-GG side is where they run for their info. It typically breaks down like this.

GamerGate advocate: GG is a consumer revolt against neopotism and poor journalistic ethics in the gaming media
Anti-GamerGate person: No it's not. It's a hate campaign against women and inclusiveness.
GamerGate advocate: What? Says who?
Anti-GamerGate person: Says the journalists whose ethics are questioned.

https://imgflip.com/readImage?iid=412211


Essentially, everything that can be said at this point has been said. until either side starts doing anything actually new, eg GG doing real journalism about the ethics thing / or the other lot doing whatever they are expected to do, then you may as well jsut read the other thread, ingest the sides/articles/posts and save yourself some effort.

I'm not sure what to thing about this paragraph. GG is active in going after the journalist's advertisers in question until said policies change in some form or another. It's also now seeking more outlets to show it's case to who are willing to look at both sides. It's working. The Girls of GamerGate HuffPo live was a big step and suddenly some of the more well known names are reporting that they're getting requests for interviews by other media. Since consumers don't have paid PR teams this is how consumers "doing real journalism about the ethics thing" get it done, by having media outlets not pass them over and getting some actual reporting done. So far we've seen a bunch of one side articles pushed by the same IP and PR teams that have been implicated. And some that refuse to budge.

http://theralphretort.com/wp-content/uploads/GUARDIANEMAIL1.png

Yes the next Guardian piece on GamerGate is going to be consulted with Leigh Alexander who is one of the people who started this. So expect it to be scathing.


It’s time for reasonable people to pull away. To form something else. To take everything they’ve learned about agitation and protest, and apply it in a very different way. Don’t have all this on your conscience.

We need to create an industry in which people can question practices and conventions, but also where all are welcome and safe. For a start, however, we need to create an industry in which, whatever you think of their views, people don't get chased out of their homes. (ed)

The first part of this is an appeal to motive. It's an attempt to quash something by painting it as bad and therefore it should be re-imagined as something good...and also leave behind any gains or identity it had. This really does nothing to benefit one side and it gives the advantage to the other to pin the same arguments against this re-imagined group against them.

The second part is another association fallacy. The fact that the people in question were receiving harassment before GamerGate is never mentioned. Nor examples in history that public figures receive the same treatment for a diverse number of subjects. It is essentially their way of using rare events to blame whatever parties they want for the actions of unknowns. Brianna Wu is a prime example. When someone tried to doxx her at 8chan (who was banned and deleted within minutes of said post), she instantly blamed tweets she received later on GamerGate despite the threatening account having no association nor using the hash tag. Could it have been some troll who wanted to get a rise out of her like a sadistic person? Very much so. That GamerGate is policing where it sees this happening is ignored because it didn't fit her narrative.

GamerGate has cracked down on this from the beginning but has not taken steps to publicize or get screenshots in the past. Sadly it has to be archived regularly just to prove that now. Let's face it, we can call out random harassers when we see them but there isn't much else to do. Especially when certain people move the goalposts on what is considered harassment. Unless it's something illegal, then the bad apples can't even be reported.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzrHKPYCUAAf_gH.jpg

(Stephen would later go on to complain that this Kite harassing her. )

And lets face it GamerGate is very bad at being a "hate campaign". For being one of the top trending hash tags on twitter with over 3 million uses, the amount of "hate" tossed around is pretty thin. When the journalists in question can only point to a handful of polarizing people who have made a name for themselves by labeling others only to get labeled in return (which in their minds constitutes harassment but only if someone else does it) then you have a real problem calling it a hate campaign.

whispous
October 18 2014, 11:25:55 AM
the regular news media pounces on every single internet hate story in favor of the "victims" no matter where their initial claims come from or the actual low volume of what could be considered hate.

Keorythe
October 18 2014, 11:56:01 AM
Interesting question. By 'Pro-GG' I presume you mean 'i support investigating and exposing corruption / journalism ethics issues' correct?

The investigation part is always ongoing. The support is for those that have the means to do so and signal boosting this information when it comes to light. This has been the way since the beginning.


Can i ask a counter-question (To Steph): i often read - eg in the article irrelephant linked, about the "anti-GG side". What would you consider 'anti-GG' to be in light of the above?

Steph can answer in her own way. But the most common view is that the anti-GG side are those that keep trying to push the semblance that this is about misogyny and lack of inclusiveness in the industry and gaming culture and more importantly, they're fighting to end those two issues. That was seen explicitly in many of the initial 14 blast articles that came out after MundaneMatt and Internet Aristocrat's videos detailing the corruption issues with many of those journalists.

Those stances were also destroyed when many high ranking (eg Sr editors, journalists, and movement leaders) participated in bigotry, bullying, and a slew of other practices as opposed to random low end or anonymous people who may or may not be associated with GamerGate. The GaymerX debacle alone killed off their moral high horses. Sam Biddle (sr editor Gawker) was recently called out for tweets advocating the shaming and bullying against pro-GG folks in submission on "Bullying Awareness Day". It got the attention of Project Anti-Bully and he was challenged to a boxing match by Mike Cernovich on the spot.


I don’t think that everyone who uses Gamergate is evil, but moderates need to look at what is being done under, or within spitting distance of, its banner.

This isn't lazy journalism at all. If it even appears to be associated or by coincidence follows a similar idea then it must be part of GamerGate...totally /sarcasm

It practically flies in the face of the same articles they write about Islamophobia where they argue that the hate part is not associated with the larger picture.


Lives are being ruined and the world’s media is looking at gamers, just at a time when the medium was being taken seriously, and it is seeing its prejudices realised. Gamergate was front-page news in the New York Times when Sarkeesian had to cancel a talk over threats of a “massacre” (also dismissed as a “false flag” by Gamergate supporters);

Actually, that threat was done long before the speaking event, was investigated, found 0 credibility, and as a result the police department refused to require pat downs and metal detectors at the entrance to the event on campus. This was based on past speaking appearances which included locations with specific gun laws. Utah has a concealed carry law which means that laws would have to be circumvented in the name of security. Since no credibility was given to the threats then they didn't bother. Sarkeesian decided not to do the event by her own will. In other words, she cancelled the event despite having had previous threats where concealed carry also existed but was never challenged. Hence why some believed it might be a possible false flag since this is right in the middle of the GamerGate campaign and she stood to gain more attention by not attending than by attending.


Cellan-Jones wrote on the BBC’s site that while he wouldn’t pick over the rights and wrongs of Gamergate (for the BBC is assiduous in not taking any sides in any debate),

“a couple of things are clear. It started with attacks legitimate concerns about a female developer and the journalists she knew had relationships, and has given rise to a whole lot more viciousness, most of it aimed at women both sides who dare to raise their heads above the parapet.”

Fixed the quote of you to bring up the context of the issue.

Pacefalm
October 19 2014, 04:03:28 PM
I don't think there are many people arguing against gender equality or proper journalistic ethics.
The entire reason why people are frothing at the mouth arguing this is because they disagree what 'Gamergate' stands for/means. I think the term should be abandoned altogether, the faster the better.
Compared to pro-choice vs pro-life. Sure, the names for the campaigns are retarded and cause for debate by themselves, but at least if you say "I am pro-choice" people will know what your stance is.
Being Pro- or Anti- Gamergate is meaningless when the term has so many separate interpretations and stances.
If these were separate issues, one being journalistic ethics and one being gender equality, and the name gamergate never existed, I believe this issue would never have grown out to be this shitstorm of toxic remarks in all directions.

Dorvil Barranis
October 19 2014, 10:13:40 PM
Interesting question. By 'Pro-GG' I presume you mean 'i support investigating and exposing corruption / journalism ethics issues' correct?

Huh, and I thought Pro-GG meant that you liked arguing with feminists and "SJWs" on the internet.

Yeah, whatever the GamerGate "movement" is, I don't see it as being productive, because at this point it is about arguing on the internet.

Of course, a Pro-GG would just say that I am trying to derail the movement and suppress speech, but that just means more arguing on the internet.

Procellus
October 19 2014, 11:13:48 PM
Interesting question. By 'Pro-GG' I presume you mean 'i support investigating and exposing corruption / journalism ethics issues' correct?

Huh, and I thought Pro-GG meant that you liked arguing with feminists and "SJWs" on the internet.

Yeah, whatever the GamerGate "movement" is, I don't see it as being productive, because at this point it is about arguing on the internet.

Of course, a Pro-GG would just say that I am trying to derail the movement and suppress speech, but that just means more arguing on the internet.

That's part of it. It's also contacting the businesses that advertise on these sites and trying to get them to pull their funding. That's had some small measure of success.

Remember a couple of years ago when you had a bunch of "Gamers are spoiled brats" articles after the Mass Effect 3 ending? Turns out there was a Google group GameJournoPros where these guys would come together and talk about stuff. That in itself is not a big deal but there does seem to be a lot of collusion between the gaming media and the journalists that cover them. If these journalists are not working for our, the customers, interests why should we keep them around? If they are paid PR people then let's get rid of them and get a new breed in here.

The SJW stuff is another point of contention. A lot of the younger GGers seem to resent the inclusion of politics into our hobby whereas some of us older guys know it was only a matter of time. It's just that Sarkeesian and her fellow travelers push such a poisonous version of feminism it seems to be out to ruin fun. Sorry gotta help put kids to bed. I'll add more later.

Lallante
October 20 2014, 07:06:19 PM
http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/17/6996601/on-gamergate-a-letter-from-the-editor

http://deadspin.com/the-future-of-the-culture-wars-is-here-and-its-gamerga-1646145844



http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/19/adios-gamergate/

http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/20/gamergate-is-the-future-of-troll-politics/

Frug
October 20 2014, 07:25:54 PM
http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/17/6996601/on-gamergate-a-letter-from-the-editor

http://deadspin.com/the-future-of-the-culture-wars-is-here-and-its-gamerga-1646145844



http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/19/adios-gamergate/

http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/20/gamergate-is-the-future-of-troll-politics/

I liked these lines



In a split very similar to that between conservative talk radio versus liberal written journalism, what we’ve seen is the emergence of a new media of talk radio style hosts on YouTube. Many of them haven’t the first clue what they’re talking about, but they’re speaking to large audiences nonetheless.
[...]
The youth conversation around the medium is happening in this realm more and more, and at the moment its idea spectrum ranges from the moderately conservative to the extremely conservative, and that’s a problem. Games need their NPR equivalent rather than asking Anita Sarkeesian to carry that torch all by herself.

As someone who doesn't follow vlogs, and is an old guy (in 30s) this wouldn't surprise me.

TheManFromDelmonte
October 21 2014, 01:41:54 AM
The OP is missing the oart where the 'gaming journalism' sites involved near-simultaneously put out the "end of gamers" articles.

We're in srs bsns now, you need to do more than assert stuff that isn't true.
Two articles were put out at a similar time, leigh's and Golding's. Golding's is the one that uses the word "death" as in "death of identity". And yet Leigh is the only person getting hate for a "death of gamers" article. Because she's a woman who has upset people previously and they piled on, switching from one woman to another wasn't hard for the people pushing it on twitter.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=132616610&postcount=7856

Keorythe
October 21 2014, 04:20:08 PM
The OP is missing the oart where the 'gaming journalism' sites involved near-simultaneously put out the "end of gamers" articles.

We're in srs bsns now, you need to do more than assert stuff that isn't true.
Two articles were put out at a similar time, leigh's and Golding's. Golding's is the one that uses the word "death" as in "death of identity". And yet Leigh is the only person getting hate for a "death of gamers" article. Because she's a woman who has upset people previously and they piled on, switching from one woman to another wasn't hard for the people pushing it on twitter.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=132616610&postcount=7856

The Golding post is on Tumblr. Golding didn't have a senior editor, have to pass his article through a legal dept, receive advertising funding, nor is paid by Tumblr to write on specific topics on a deadline. Leigh Alexander on the other hand was a editior for Gamasutra at the time and would later double down on the whole thing with a Time article which is then followed up by her personal blog which is also cited by other outlets. She's also gone out of her way to contact other websites to spread her narrative and bragged about doing so. The other articles were published with links, external quotes, and visual content within a few hours of Alexanders original piece. So these "journalists" went into super productive overdrive to publish these first articles....or someone shared her article with them beforehand. Completely coincidence, I mean it's not like there was any sort of game journo list where they could collude to push a narrative. Regardless, the other people and their websites were also boycotted and advertisers petitioned by GamerGate.

Leigh Alexander really did get the ire of some with her caustic writing that even pissed off Ben Kochera who would later complain about her.


Games culture’ is a petri dish of people who know so little about how human social interaction and professional life works that they can concoct online ‘wars’ about social justice or ‘game journalism ethics,’ straight-faced, and cause genuine human consequences.

Remember, the GamerGate tag wasn't created yet and the first IA and MM videos delving into accusations of journalist corruption and the effects it might have had on something as large as IndieCade are just now taking root when she wrote this. In fact, at this point in history GamerGate probably would have fizzled out to nothing more than a vid or two which the people implicated could have brushed off. Good job pouring gasoline on that fire.


It’s not like there are reputable outlets publishing rational articles in favor of the trolls’ ‘side’. Don’t give press to the harassers. Don’t blame an entire industry for a few bad apples.

You can taste that sweet irony from here.


These obtuse shitslingers, these wailing hyper-consumers, these childish internet-arguers -- they are not my audience.

If they weren't before then they definitely are not now and they're also not rewarding you with advertising clicks.

That NeoGAF list is missing a few articles as well, all within a few hours of each other.

A Guide to Ending ‘Gamers by Darren Wilson http://archive.today/2t93l
Sexism, Misogyny and Online Attacks: It’s a Horrible Time to Consider Yourself a ‘Gamer’ by Patrick O’Rourke https://archive.today/HkPHc
It’s Dangerous to Go Alone: Why Are Gamers So Angry by Arthur Chu http://archive.today/9NxHy

There are 5 others published that day which all focus on a single Sarkeesian threat the day before but link back to the Alexander and Wilson articles.

These were followed up the next day (Aug 29) by others also not on that list and then even more on Mon. morning all about the same thing and redirecting frequently to Alexanders or Wilson's (both Gamasutra) and Golding is quickly forgotten.

DevilDude
October 21 2014, 06:17:57 PM
Didn't see we were having this discussion here now, I'd been staying out of it in general since general is a shitshow unless you like pictures/gifs of cats and half naked/naked women or various implements of war.

Begin epic wall of text.

So first things first, journalism in gaming is pretty fucking broken, like more so than most traditional media which can at least claim incompetence when they fuck up. A large amount of the fuel for this whole incident has nothing to do with misogyny and everything to do with the dissatisfaction the community feels with the associated gaming media. For a long time the larger incorporated outlets have effectively been worn like cocksocks by the various publishers. They have become wholly dependent for survival on the people which they're supposed to be checking on, this situation is untenable, especially as gamers have grown up and become adults it's becoming harder and harder to bullshit us.

We’re beginning to see a shift towards independent actors in gaming media, it’s been ongoing for quite some time. Some examples actually include Kotaku and polygon which started small and grew based on their unwillingness to be publisher sockpuppets. Unfortunately these new giants are showing another trend, they seem to have a very uniform political stance and more concerning a political agenda.

One of the major criticisms aimed at Zoe Quinn Long before gamergate was that her games were winning awards on sociopolitical rather than design or technical merit. While I actually do support the idea of games exploring the human condition beyond hack and slash mechanics there is definitely some weight to the criticisms leveled in this direction too. I’d advise anyone to go give depression quest a try and tell me whether you think it’s worthy of an indy gaming award, if you’re willing to take my word for it, it’s not. It’s basically a ‘choose your own adventure’ story in eBook form, and it’s not really even a good example of choose your own adventure, people have questioned whether you could even call it a game, and they’re not wrong to bring the point up. This game won an award under heavy criticism for these reasons, and it later came out during this whole debacle that one of the Polygon editors responsible for judging in that contest helped to fund it with a six thousand dollar donation. The point here is that a lot of people feel Quinn has received awards not on merit but because of a political agenda, which then ties into the next major problem.

What I think a lot of the gamergate crowd feel isn't getting examined enough, or is simply being dismissed is the actual accusations of misogyny surrounding #GamerGate, which basically boil down to derision of Zoe Quin and Anita Sarkeesian, as far as I've been able to tell they're the only prominent females on the opposing side actually drawing major criticism. I’ve already gone into detail of one major incident with Quinn but it’s also useful to note her defense of herself, which actually isn’t a defense, it’s simply to claim that her critics are misogynists, effectively she has no defense beyond an ad hominem attack, which is telling in itself. Moving on to Sarkeesian, I don’t really know what to make of her beyond that she’s a loud feminist who talks about video games but seems to have little knowledge of them beyond what you might read in the news. Her attitude and statements are insulting, condescending and bombastic, and her response to criticism mirror’s Quinn’s.

Looking at the two of them, their methods, their media, and their apparent agenda, a common thread starts to emerge. Both of them seem to have come to the conclusion that gaming is wrong and must be ‘fixed’ with feminism. I think what’s causing the ruckus is that this whole attitude is confrontational as well as condescending, people who would otherwise be their allies end up being insulted by their broad brush statements and rebuffed by their attitude. The modus operandi here seems to be to act out and then switch into the victim role and yell loudly when the backlash hits, relying on naďve outside media to see a woman in distress and rally round (which is irony in magnitudes I have trouble comprehending).

None of this is to say that gaming doesn’t have a well-deserved reputation for misogyny, the fighting game scene alone should be a badge of shame we all wear until someone fucking straitens that shit out. However I don’t think Quinn and Sarkeesian’s approach is anything but counterproductive, chastising the whole gaming community as if we were children in need of correction, or claiming that legitimate criticism is nothing more than misogyny isn’t going to advance the cause of women in games and gaming, in fact it will do nothing but the opposite. I think that’s obvious to many people, and that’s why gamergate is still frothing, because people aren’t just mad about transparency, they’re mad the people like Quinn and Sarkeesian are speaking for them without their consent, or identifying them to mass media as asocial deviants in need of correction without bothering to understand them or in a darker vein, because doing so gets them the media attention from which they make their living.

TheManFromDelmonte
October 21 2014, 10:11:27 PM
The OP is missing the oart where the 'gaming journalism' sites involved near-simultaneously put out the "end of gamers" articles.

We're in srs bsns now, you need to do more than assert stuff that isn't true.
Two articles were put out at a similar time, leigh's and Golding's. Golding's is the one that uses the word "death" as in "death of identity". And yet Leigh is the only person getting hate for a "death of gamers" article. Because she's a woman who has upset people previously and they piled on, switching from one woman to another wasn't hard for the people pushing it on twitter.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=132616610&postcount=7856

The Golding post is on Tumblr. Golding didn't have a senior editor, have to pass his article through a legal dept, receive advertising funding, nor is paid by Tumblr to write on specific topics on a deadline. Leigh Alexander on the other hand was a editior for Gamasutra at the time and would later double down on the whole thing with a Time article which is then followed up by her personal blog which is also cited by other outlets. She's also gone out of her way to contact other websites to spread her narrative and bragged about doing so. The other articles were published with links, external quotes, and visual content within a few hours of Alexanders original piece. So these "journalists" went into super productive overdrive to publish these first articles....or someone shared her article with them beforehand. Completely coincidence, I mean it's not like there was any sort of game journo list where they could collude to push a narrative. Regardless, the other people and their websites were also boycotted and advertisers petitioned by GamerGate.


Except we know Leigh and Golding aren't on the GameJournoPro list. And neither are most of the other people who linked to their articles.
And knocking up some copy in a few hours and whatever is "news" that day is exactly what games websites writers do every single day of their lives, so the fact lots of people link to something that they see as a big news piece shouldn't be surprising. I mean it was big on twitter right?

The fact is journalists communicating with each other is not a problem, nor unique to games. Press clubs are a real thing that the real journalism world has in abundance. No journalism ethics course would even think to dicuss what is appropriate to discuss with other journalists privately because it would never occur to anyone that it's an issue.

The other fact is this "coordinated" campaign didn't exist, and even the GameJournoPro smoking gun provides no evidence that it did as the key people aren't on that list.

Tailn
October 22 2014, 01:45:27 PM
I have been casually trying to work out what is going on here correct me if I am wrong but it seems to boil down to a few extremist groups slinging mud and faeces at each other and labelling themselves as members of a much wider community that would want or have very little in common with them.
My self as a 'Hardcore Gamer' who has been so longer than most of those involved have been alive resent claims to the 'Gamer' tag. The groups seem to be 'womens rights activists', 'teenagers and small minded men who have grown used to the anonymity of the internet' and those drawn into the issue due to bleeding hearts, social/business positions that mean they responsibility to and lastly any one who sees a 'news story' that will sell column inches.

The only right position now is to tell the first group to wind their necks in and stop poking. The second group to be visited by the authorities and learn that the people on the other end of the internet have rights and that even here you have to take responsibility for your actions (prison sentence and criminal records for people who made death threats etc.). The third group to either grow professionally or stop putting them selves in positions of authority. And the last group nothing needs to be done, society has already learned the lesson to take a bag of salt along with any opinion piece from journalists.

Keorythe
October 22 2014, 06:04:38 PM
The OP is missing the oart where the 'gaming journalism' sites involved near-simultaneously put out the "end of gamers" articles.

We're in srs bsns now, you need to do more than assert stuff that isn't true.
Two articles were put out at a similar time, leigh's and Golding's. Golding's is the one that uses the word "death" as in "death of identity". And yet Leigh is the only person getting hate for a "death of gamers" article. Because she's a woman who has upset people previously and they piled on, switching from one woman to another wasn't hard for the people pushing it on twitter.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=132616610&postcount=7856

The Golding post is on Tumblr. Golding didn't have a senior editor, have to pass his article through a legal dept, receive advertising funding, nor is paid by Tumblr to write on specific topics on a deadline. Leigh Alexander on the other hand was a editior for Gamasutra at the time and would later double down on the whole thing with a Time article which is then followed up by her personal blog which is also cited by other outlets. She's also gone out of her way to contact other websites to spread her narrative and bragged about doing so. The other articles were published with links, external quotes, and visual content within a few hours of Alexanders original piece. So these "journalists" went into super productive overdrive to publish these first articles....or someone shared her article with them beforehand. Completely coincidence, I mean it's not like there was any sort of game journo list where they could collude to push a narrative. Regardless, the other people and their websites were also boycotted and advertisers petitioned by GamerGate.


Except we know Leigh and Golding aren't on the GameJournoPro list. And neither are most of the other people who linked to their articles.
And knocking up some copy in a few hours and whatever is "news" that day is exactly what games websites writers do every single day of their lives, so the fact lots of people link to something that they see as a big news piece shouldn't be surprising. I mean it was big on twitter right?

Actually no it wasn't big on twitter. GamerGate didn't take off until this event actually (Aug 28). It had only partially grown after some sites started to change their disclosure policies (and would silently change back later). The hash tag GamerGate was created literally the night before and probably would have stayed small after the policy changes since it was focused on a handful of devs and journalists.

http://techraptor.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Topsy1.jpg

You are partially correct on some parts though. Only 2/3 of the total authors are on the list or had their names mentioned specifically as in the case of Alexander (Kuchera quoted as hating her style but was in contact and wanted to add). Meanwhile the ones that aren't on the list all have their editors there. Wilson and Alexander both wrote for Gamasutra so it's a given they may have collaborated and not the issue. The point is that the ability to collude was definitely there. This was followed up by more investigation turning up emails, twitter posts, and facebook posts that showed definite collusion on the matter. Some may argue that this is circumstantial but to the consumers, this was more than enough as the trust between them and the journalists had already eroded.


The fact is journalists communicating with each other is not a problem, nor unique to games. Press clubs are a real thing that the real journalism world has in abundance. No journalism ethics course would even think to dicuss what is appropriate to discuss with other journalists privately because it would never occur to anyone that it's an issue.

Well it's definitely not unique to games and the excuses about press clubs or "we're just friendly banter" have been used in the past. The reason why this was brought up is because it's happened to real journalists and was a black mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JournoList

The point is that this is very very shitty behavior and just compounded distrust of these people. More importantly it showed how all of these "journalists" were after a narrative rather than just reporting on an subject and how they could pressure others to cover or not cover and aspect. These were both breeches of SPJ ethics and clear cut examples of nepotism but that isn't against the law. So their readers (ie consumers) revolted and now many are realizing why this is bad. They're understanding that this is the gasoline that started the fire and to take care in the future.

I've lived through this same kind of bullshit back when I was a kid and it seems that every new generation are apt to make the same mistakes. They told us that heavy metal was turning us into devil worshipers (the spinning records backwards to hear satan days), then that Dungeons and Dragons would turn us into occultist or give you psychological problems, then how cartoons were too violent and would turn us into killers, which led up to the Jack Thompson days of "video games are murder simulators" and we're going to be killers again. Now we're at period of video games will make us sexist and misogynists. We were to humble ourselves before these patrons of morality and submit to their will despite the very muddled science of their beliefs.

http://adland.tv/adnews/gamergate-moral-panic-resembles-90s-which-directly-affects-womens-career-choices/1629488701

In all of those previous periods people had to take a stand otherwise the very things we loved would have be curtailed and controlled by a group of moral panic extremists riding on moral high horses trying to run roughshod over something they found "problematic". With the rate at which this is making headlines, we will probably have to see another Parents Music Resource Center style event or some tie in with the whole "rape culture" panic going on. Brianna Wu is already attempting to engage Elizabeth Warren on the issue to bring legislation.

Dorvil Barranis
October 22 2014, 08:29:15 PM
http://www.clickhole.com/article/summary-gamergate-movement-we-will-immediately-cha-1241?utm_campaign=default&utm_medium=ShareTools&utm_source=twitter


Even if you’re only a casual internet user, chances are that by now you’ve probably heard something about the movement known as Gamergate. If you’re unfamiliar with what Gamergate is, we’ve taken the liberty of writing up a brief summary of the movement and its goals, which we will immediately change if anything in it offends anyone who associates with Gamergate.

Itiken
October 22 2014, 10:28:39 PM
The OP is missing the oart where the 'gaming journalism' sites involved near-simultaneously put out the "end of gamers" articles.

We're in srs bsns now, you need to do more than assert stuff that isn't true.
Two articles were put out at a similar time, leigh's and Golding's. Golding's is the one that uses the word "death" as in "death of identity". And yet Leigh is the only person getting hate for a "death of gamers" article. Because she's a woman who has upset people previously and they piled on, switching from one woman to another wasn't hard for the people pushing it on twitter.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=132616610&postcount=7856

The Golding post is on Tumblr. Golding didn't have a senior editor, have to pass his article through a legal dept, receive advertising funding, nor is paid by Tumblr to write on specific topics on a deadline. Leigh Alexander on the other hand was a editior for Gamasutra at the time and would later double down on the whole thing with a Time article which is then followed up by her personal blog which is also cited by other outlets. She's also gone out of her way to contact other websites to spread her narrative and bragged about doing so. The other articles were published with links, external quotes, and visual content within a few hours of Alexanders original piece. So these "journalists" went into super productive overdrive to publish these first articles....or someone shared her article with them beforehand. Completely coincidence, I mean it's not like there was any sort of game journo list where they could collude to push a narrative. Regardless, the other people and their websites were also boycotted and advertisers petitioned by GamerGate.


Except we know Leigh and Golding aren't on the GameJournoPro list. And neither are most of the other people who linked to their articles.
And knocking up some copy in a few hours and whatever is "news" that day is exactly what games websites writers do every single day of their lives, so the fact lots of people link to something that they see as a big news piece shouldn't be surprising. I mean it was big on twitter right?

Actually no it wasn't big on twitter. GamerGate didn't take off until this event actually (Aug 28). It had only partially grown after some sites started to change their disclosure policies (and would silently change back later). The hash tag GamerGate was created literally the night before and probably would have stayed small after the policy changes since it was focused on a handful of devs and journalists.

http://techraptor.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Topsy1.jpg

You are partially correct on some parts though. Only 2/3 of the total authors are on the list or had their names mentioned specifically as in the case of Alexander (Kuchera quoted as hating her style but was in contact and wanted to add). Meanwhile the ones that aren't on the list all have their editors there. Wilson and Alexander both wrote for Gamasutra so it's a given they may have collaborated and not the issue. The point is that the ability to collude was definitely there. This was followed up by more investigation turning up emails, twitter posts, and facebook posts that showed definite collusion on the matter. Some may argue that this is circumstantial but to the consumers, this was more than enough as the trust between them and the journalists had already eroded.


The fact is journalists communicating with each other is not a problem, nor unique to games. Press clubs are a real thing that the real journalism world has in abundance. No journalism ethics course would even think to dicuss what is appropriate to discuss with other journalists privately because it would never occur to anyone that it's an issue.

Well it's definitely not unique to games and the excuses about press clubs or "we're just friendly banter" have been used in the past. The reason why this was brought up is because it's happened to real journalists and was a black mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JournoList

The point is that this is very very shitty behavior and just compounded distrust of these people. More importantly it showed how all of these "journalists" were after a narrative rather than just reporting on an subject and how they could pressure others to cover or not cover and aspect. These were both breeches of SPJ ethics and clear cut examples of nepotism but that isn't against the law. So their readers (ie consumers) revolted and now many are realizing why this is bad. They're understanding that this is the gasoline that started the fire and to take care in the future.

I've lived through this same kind of bullshit back when I was a kid and it seems that every new generation are apt to make the same mistakes. They told us that heavy metal was turning us into devil worshipers (the spinning records backwards to hear satan days), then that Dungeons and Dragons would turn us into occultist or give you psychological problems, then how cartoons were too violent and would turn us into killers, which led up to the Jack Thompson days of "video games are murder simulators" and we're going to be killers again. Now we're at period of video games will make us sexist and misogynists. We were to humble ourselves before these patrons of morality and submit to their will despite the very muddled science of their beliefs.

http://adland.tv/adnews/gamergate-moral-panic-resembles-90s-which-directly-affects-womens-career-choices/1629488701

In all of those previous periods people had to take a stand otherwise the very things we loved would have be curtailed and controlled by a group of moral panic extremists riding on moral high horses trying to run roughshod over something they found "problematic". With the rate at which this is making headlines, we will probably have to see another Parents Music Resource Center style event or some tie in with the whole "rape culture" panic going on. Brianna Wu is already attempting to engage Elizabeth Warren on the issue to bring legislation.

Taken in one byte it's not a bad little narrative but lets examine it to see how the clouds in the sky these opinions rest in are formed shall we.


Actually no it wasn't big on twitter. GamerGate didn't take off until this event actually (Aug 28). It had only partially grown after some sites started to change their disclosure policies (and would silently change back later). The hash tag GamerGate was created literally the night before and probably would have stayed small after the policy changes since it was focused on a handful of devs and journalists.

http://techraptor.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Topsy1.jpg

So Gamergate wasn't a thing until people decided to make it a thing on twitter. Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up. Shame you neatly sidestepped the actual point of his post though. There are aspersions being cast that 'everyoen was in on it' and it's demonstrably provable that that is a totally made up pile of nonsense.


You are partially correct on some parts though. Only 2/3 of the total authors are on the list or had their names mentioned specifically as in the case of Alexander (Kuchera quoted as hating her style but was in contact and wanted to add). Meanwhile the ones that aren't on the list all have their editors there. Wilson and Alexander both wrote for Gamasutra so it's a given they may have collaborated and not the issue. The point is that the ability to collude was definitely there

So some journalists were able to talk to some other journalists. They may or may not have colluded bu they may each in turn have communicated with each other, or been able to communicate with each other. Gotcha. But it was nly bad journalists who talked on there. With you so far.


This was followed up by more investigation turning up emails, twitter posts, and facebook posts that showed definite collusion on the matter. Some may argue that this is circumstantial but to the consumers, this was more than enough as the trust between them and the journalists had already eroded.
Here the narrative kicks in. let me translate.

At this point it fits the narrative story to claim that the whole world is very upset by journalists talking to each other about things. I can dig up some screenshots of stuff that paints things however i like. infact I have loads of secret communications that i will allude to that proves my point but can't show you because it's secret.

Still awake back there? goody. moving on:



The fact is journalists communicating with each other is not a problem, nor unique to games. Press clubs are a real thing that the real journalism world has in abundance. No journalism ethics course would even think to dicuss what is appropriate to discuss with other journalists privately because it would never occur to anyone that it's an issue.

Well it's definitely not unique to games and the excuses about press clubs or "we're just friendly banter" have been used in the past. The reason why this was brought up is because it's happened to real journalists and was a black mark.
No. no it wasn't. once again it's very easy to cast around aspersions of "this was very bad and everyone as really in trouble for it". What you are in fact saying is Journalists are not allowed to talk to other journalists in pricate, they must do it all out in the open, in public, in front of me because i am extremely distrustful fo them. That's cool. just pop out and say it though, as you really are using way too many words up to say it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JournoList

The point is that this is very very shitty behavior and just compounded distrust of these people.
Wait what? Why ? By who? By people too stupid to think that people in a common field communicate? What next? Do *we* need to set up a twitter hashtag to make sure Science dudes don't collude and only research in a vaacum. Some kind of geo-location tagging to make sure no abr has more than 2 It Techs in or they may Collude, making everyone distrustful of them?


More importantly it showed how all of these "journalists" were after a narrative rather than just reporting on an subject and how they could pressure others to cover or not cover and aspect. i want to like the bravo.gif image here but this is one of these wonderful leaps of faith that needs to be looked at.

We are supposed to believe at this point that either the sole, or the emergent reason for members of this list to communicate is to fool, hoodwink, misdirect and / or con the reading public into following a secret narrative layed down in the Group by the members. I gatehr it's way past asking ifg you ahve any idea how carzy you sound ?


These were both breeches of SPJ ethics [/qoute]
No there wasn't

[quote]and clear cut examples of nepotism but that isn't against the law.
As above


So their readers (ie consumers) revolted and now many are realizing why this is bad.
They didn't and they are not. Period. in fact quite the opposite. The internet is full of AMA's, interviews, posts and blogs wondering what the hell everyone is so upset about. Most of of the list has been leaked in some form or the other and it's entirely bland and free of all but the most asine aspersions leveled against it.

Citations:
https://archive.today/LUHMD
http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/09/22/new-gamejourno-pro-leak-the-email-summaries/

Even mr B seems to fall ove rhimself at this point:
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/10/10/GameJournoPros-joking-about-paid-reviews-and-mocking-Phil-Fish
let me get this straight though. The list members (tm) make fun of paid review, marketing and everyone else in private, but still then play out their narrative. Or follow the corrupt hands, or something.

I must admit i'm lost now. really.


They're understanding that this is the gasoline that started the fire and to take care in the future.
Ah more vague handwavium. More of the "thin end of the wedge" "they will be sorry" "straw that broke the camel's back" vagueity with no actual substance beyond a few conspiracy nuts.

But lets not stop there.


I've lived through this same kind of bullshit back when I was a kid and it seems that every new generation are apt to make the same mistakes. They told us that heavy metal was turning us into devil worshipers (the spinning records backwards to hear satan days), then that Dungeons and Dragons would turn us into occultist or give you psychological problems, then how cartoons were too violent and would turn us into killers, which led up to the Jack Thompson days of "video games are murder simulators" and we're going to be killers again. Now we're at period of video games will make us sexist and misogynists. We were to humble ourselves before these patrons of morality and submit to their will despite the very muddled science of their beliefs.

This is my favorite paragraph of the whole fiasco.

If translated correctly you are saying that because in your youth, crazy Religious / neo-conservative types were 'Down' on D&D, now their opposite numbers, the liberals want to stop you from playing computergames? is that it?


Now we're at period of video games will make us sexist and misogynists.


We were to humble ourselves before these patrons of morality and submit to their will despite the very muddled science of their beliefs.


muddled science of their beliefs
So they who would stop you from having D&D now will stop you from computergaming because of the science of their beliefs? Even skipping over the "science != Belief" problem Modern neo-Conservative ideology is perfectly aligned with the current 'GG' philosophy. Games are for men. Women are objects adn should be paid less / treated as such / in the kitchen. Children should do as their parents did, not listen to heavy metal and not play games parents do not understand with picturs of wizzards in them.

Do you not see how you are talking cross-idiology? I assume not but lets continue:


http://adland.tv/adnews/gamergate-mo...ces/1629488701

In all of those previous periods people had to take a stand otherwise the very things we loved would have be curtailed and controlled by a group of moral panic extremists riding on moral high horses trying to run roughshod over something they found "problematic".

So gamergate is taking a stand. A stand against moral panic. against Political Correctness gone mad. against the system trying to oppress gamers out of their thingies. Is it now. interesting. A few pages ago it was about journalism and stopping the journalist from writing things that they have discussed. Though a few pages before that it was about a woman who wrote a game getting a review she allegedly paid for with her vagina.

make up your mind man. You can see why the people are confused.


With the rate at which this is making headlines, we will probably have to see another Parents Music Resource Center style event or some tie in with the whole "rape culture" panic going on.

Wow. 'Rape culture panic'. I just can't hold it back any more:
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bravo2.gif


Brianna Wu is already attempting to engage Elizabeth Warren on the issue to bring legislation.
Which is obviously a terrible thing because..... ?

Anyway - didn't GJP happen 2007-2010 anyway ? it's old (boring and irrelevant) news.

Itiken
October 22 2014, 10:36:15 PM
Remember a couple of years ago when you had a bunch of "Gamers are spoiled brats" articles after the Mass Effect 3 ending?

Just to pick up on this as well on my way out of the door (echo chamber):

Gamers are spoiled brats. It's not a question it's a statement of fact.
Does it even need referencing? Have a read through any Metacritic review page. Any official game forum. Read the Eve-O forums regarding capital jump changes. Read the blizzard forums every time they either do or don't touch anything. read the games subforum of this site. It' spages and pages of overeactions, screaming shitfits, threats of legal action, half harted calls to arms.

And don't' forget what started the whole #GG thing off. A woman did some vBlogs about game characters. 'Gamers' took offence and in came the DOXX's, rapedeaththreat's etc etc. A woman who the internet doesn't like wrote a game, 'Gamers' took offence and in came the DOXX's, rapedeaththreat's etc etc.

A few probably misguided feminists write a couple of "gamers are dead" articles talking about the SingleWhiteMale basement dwellers who are worried their precious art form is being destroyed by a moral mninority, adn the internet erupts into the most epic shitstorm in living memory because HOW DARE THEY.

And you think that the problem in games is the journalists who write about it? i feel that is a extraordinarily simplistic world view.




Grand finale:

Even a thread started in SRS BZNS especially to talk about the serious parts of GG does nothing of the sort. All people want to do is shout down "the other side" and prove that their side is wrong because of FACTS.

it's fucking pathetic.

If you want to be about journalism so much, go start a fucking blog or something.

Phrixus Zephyr
October 22 2014, 11:38:33 PM
Gamers are spoiled brats. It's not a question it's a statement of fact.
Does it even need referencing? Have a read through any Metacritic review page. Any official game forum. Read the Eve-O forums regarding capital jump changes. Read the blizzard forums every time they either do or don't touch anything. read the games subforum of this site. It' spages and pages of overeactions, screaming shitfits, threats of legal action, half harted calls to arms.
Replace 'games' with music, TV, movies, sports, almost anything.

TheManFromDelmonte
October 23 2014, 12:04:20 AM
And knocking up some copy in a few hours and whatever is "news" that day is exactly what games websites writers do every single day of their lives, so the fact lots of people link to something that they see as a big news piece shouldn't be surprising. I mean it was big on twitter right?

Actually no it wasn't big on twitter. GamerGate didn't take off until this event actually (Aug 28).

"It" in this context isn't gamergate but the post by Leigh. that's what would be high profile enough to get people to write about it.
I imagine game journalists spend half their day looking at new stories on each other's sites in case they've missed something to write about.

Keorythe
October 23 2014, 01:33:27 AM
Trigger warning!! **INCOMING WALL OF TEXT!!!**



Taken in one byte it's not a bad little narrative but lets examine it to see how the clouds in the sky these opinions rest in are formed shall we.


Actually no it wasn't big on twitter. GamerGate didn't take off until this event actually (Aug 28). It had only partially grown after some sites started to change their disclosure policies (and would silently change back later). The hash tag GamerGate was created literally the night before and probably would have stayed small after the policy changes since it was focused on a handful of devs and journalists.

So Gamergate wasn't a thing until people decided to make it a thing on twitter. Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up. Shame you neatly sidestepped the actual point of his post though. There are aspersions being cast that 'everyoen was in on it' and it's demonstrably provable that that is a totally made up pile of nonsense.

So some journalists were able to talk to some other journalists. They may or may not have colluded bu they may each in turn have communicated with each other, or been able to communicate with each other. Gotcha. But it was nly bad journalists who talked on there. With you so far.

Yup pretty much.





The fact is journalists communicating with each other is not a problem, nor unique to games. Press clubs are a real thing that the real journalism world has in abundance. No journalism ethics course would even think to dicuss what is appropriate to discuss with other journalists privately because it would never occur to anyone that it's an issue.
Well it's definitely not unique to games and the excuses about press clubs or "we're just friendly banter" have been used in the past. The reason why this was brought up is because it's happened to real journalists and was a black mark.
No. no it wasn't. once again it's very easy to cast around aspersions of "this was very bad and everyone as really in trouble for it". What you are in fact saying is Journalists are not allowed to talk to other journalists in pricate, they must do it all out in the open, in public, in front of me because i am extremely distrustful fo them. That's cool. just pop out and say it though, as you really are using way too many words up to say it.

Nope. And I find it quite sad that you still haven't figured out the difference between banter and collusion. One is meaningless and happens all of the time. The fine line gets broken when you push a narrative within journalism. If it was so meaningless as you try to make out then Kyle Orland wouldn't have made a 2 page post on Ars Technica defending his part in the whole thing along with a number of others including John Funk who you posted. It's one thing to say, "this game sucks because of XXX, so I'm going to write a bad story on it" and "this game sucks because of XXX, so we're all going to write stories on it and if you don't we can make this very uncomfortable for you within this tiny sphere of games journalism".


We are supposed to believe at this point that either the sole, or the emergent reason for members of this list to communicate is to fool, hoodwink, misdirect and / or con the reading public into following a secret narrative layed down in the Group by the members. I gatehr it's way past asking ifg you ahve any idea how carzy you sound ?

Any line of communication can be used for fun or for illicit purposes. And many of the entries show plenty of funny stuff meant for behind doors joking. The problem is that it was also used for more than that which is where we run into issues.



These were both breeches of SPJ ethics [/qoute]
No there wasn't


and clear cut examples of nepotism but that isn't against the law.
As above

SJP isn't a government agency. Breeches of their policy break no US laws unless a charge of racketeering can be proved.



I've lived through this same kind of bullshit back when I was a kid and it seems that every new generation are apt to make the same mistakes. They told us that heavy metal was turning us into devil worshipers (the spinning records backwards to hear satan days), then that Dungeons and Dragons would turn us into occultist or give you psychological problems, then how cartoons were too violent and would turn us into killers, which led up to the Jack Thompson days of "video games are murder simulators" and we're going to be killers again. Now we're at period of video games will make us sexist and misogynists. We were to humble ourselves before these patrons of morality and submit to their will despite the very muddled science of their beliefs.

This is my favorite paragraph of the whole fiasco.

If translated correctly you are saying that because in your youth, crazy Religious / neo-conservative types were 'Down' on D&D, now their opposite numbers, the liberals want to stop you from playing computergames? is that it?

The PMRC was chaired by Tipper Gore. In both cases of Heavy Metal/Rock and violent video games the weights were balanced on both sides of the political spectrum. In this case you have both liberal and conservative types were are part of GamerGate. It's an extremely odd mix when you realize that people who would normally not support each other are doing so in this instance. It's pretty telling when religious conservatives are calling out the extremist anti-GamerGaters for fucking up the pro-homosexual game convention GaymerX just because they wanted a neutral stance.



Now we're at period of video games will make us sexist and misogynists.


We were to humble ourselves before these patrons of morality and submit to their will despite the very muddled science of their beliefs.


muddled science of their beliefs
So they who would stop you from having D&D now will stop you from computergaming because of the science of their beliefs? Even skipping over the "science != Belief" problem Modern neo-Conservative ideology is perfectly aligned with the current 'GG' philosophy. Games are for men. Women are objects adn should be paid less / treated as such / in the kitchen. Children should do as their parents did, not listen to heavy metal and not play games parents do not understand with picturs of wizzards in them.

Ooookaaaaay. Right, because GamerGate is secretly against women devs so much that we have to hide those beliefs instead of being very open about them. In fact the journalists being implicated in all of this are the real crusaders here and they're exposing our secret cabal of women haters. Oh wait, since when did shitty journalists become "female devs"?

Also, why did you break up the sentences like that? Do you not understand context?



In all of those previous periods people had to take a stand otherwise the very things we loved would have be curtailed and controlled by a group of moral panic extremists riding on moral high horses trying to run roughshod over something they found "problematic".

So gamergate is taking a stand. A stand against moral panic. against Political Correctness gone mad. against the system trying to oppress gamers out of their thingies. Is it now. interesting. A few pages ago it was about journalism and stopping the journalist from writing things that they have discussed. Though a few pages before that it was about a woman who wrote a game getting a review she allegedly paid for with her vagina. Make up your mind man. You can see why the people are confused.

Ummm, one thing kicked it off. The other thing contributed. You seem to be trying to blow up both as a primary reason for the existence of GamerGate.

Let me make this a bit clearer for you.


Shitty female game dev made a shitty game and slept with some people to get good review in kotaku and to win major awards at a rigged indy convention
Turns out that the exbf thinks the timeline is off by one month so game press might not be true. Game Journos go apeshit and claim issue is debunked. Ignore previous game press in RPS which wasn't an official review and the awards issue.
Game Journos confused why they're the target. Double down on misogyny to put off Gamers.
Gamers go on investigating and find shitty behavior by Game Journos. Shitty female game devs is never mentioned after this point from GamerGate.
Gamer Journos don't understand why no one was pissy before. Keep bring up Shitty Female Game dev and Anna Sarkeesian....because misogyny.
#notyourshield tells them to fuck off. Issue isn't inclusiveness, but shitty Game Journos. Are called Uncle Toms and traitors
Game Journos start losing advertisers. Call GamerGate a hate campaign again. Claim all anonymous harassers are part of GamerGate. Claim GamerGate is the reason for all harassment of Shitty Female Game dev, Anna Sarkeesian, and now Brianna Wu (who plugs her game with sexualized female characters furiously).




Anyway - didn't GJP happen 2007-2010 anyway ? it's old (boring and irrelevant) news.

GJP is still in service. Those believed to have leaked it were kicked out. :facepalm:


Gamers are spoiled brats. It's not a question it's a statement of fact.

Gamers are consumers. When consumers get shit on they complain. This happens in EVERY SINGLE INDUSTRY. Remember when the Mass Effect 3 ending was so bad that consumers complained and Bioware provided an alternative ending? Remember the T-20 incident in EvE and the result of that screw up? That's because they want those consumers to buy/sub their games again. Consumers give you money and if you're shitty to consumers then they don't give you money. This isn't rocket science. If someone wants to make a game with whatever political ideology, they're free to do so, just don't expect to rake in money for it.

Dorvil Barranis
October 24 2014, 11:57:06 PM
Felicia Day weighs in:

http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/post/100700417809/the-only-thing-i-have-to-say-about-gamer-gate

and gets doxxed:
http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/post/100700417809/the-only-thing-i-have-to-say-about-gamer-gate


“I realized my silence on the issue was not motivated by some grand strategy, but out of fear that the issue has created about speaking out,” Day wrote on her Tumblr. “I have tried to retweet a few of the articles I’ve seen dissecting the issue in support, but personally I a terrified to be doxed for even typing the words ‘gamer gate.’ I have had stalkers and restraining orders issued in the past, I have had people show up on my doorstep when my personal information was hard to get.”

Minutes after she posted the note, an anonymous user left a comment beneath her post with information they claimed was her address and personal email. The entire comment section has since been removed.

Keorythe
October 25 2014, 08:51:49 AM
Felicia Day weighs in:

http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/post/100700417809/the-only-thing-i-have-to-say-about-gamer-gate

and gets doxxed:
http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/post/100700417809/the-only-thing-i-have-to-say-about-gamer-gate


“I realized my silence on the issue was not motivated by some grand strategy, but out of fear that the issue has created about speaking out,” Day wrote on her Tumblr. “I have tried to retweet a few of the articles I’ve seen dissecting the issue in support, but personally I a terrified to be doxed for even typing the words ‘gamer gate.’ I have had stalkers and restraining orders issued in the past, I have had people show up on my doorstep when my personal information was hard to get.”

Minutes after she posted the note, an anonymous user left a comment beneath her post with information they claimed was her address and personal email. The entire comment section has since been removed.

Just to point out, doxxing involves highly personal social media, photos, bank accounts etc. Someone posted her home address and email which was already public domain and shown on various paparazzi and fan sites. This information was used by paparazzi to stalk...err obtain important photos of movie stars. This was questioned when it first happened because of the ease of discovery which she claimed was "hard to get". Others took a look and it was a fairly simple search at the time with her fan club at the front and personal details afterwards (now headlines fill up most of google). So it begs the question if this is really a doxx or is this like your parents going through your public facebook photos and calling it "hacking".

The actual "doxx":
http://i.imgur.com/bEH6r92.png

Day makes some awesome geek stuff. You could always tell that she's severely fragile in the emotional sense going off of past interviews and her writings about depression. But her blog post about this was a bit disturbing. I will continue to like the stuff she does at Geek and Sundry. But I'm hoping that it's just a literary mechanism used to emphasize distrust rather than something she actually did which would constitute a sensational amount of paranoia.


But for the first time maybe in my life, on that Saturday afternoon, I walked towards that pair of gamers and I didn’t smile. I didn’t say hello. In fact, I crossed the street so I wouldn’t walk by them.



New Details about Grayson and lack of disclosure

Also, as a side note, we've seen the Gawker media types regurgitate the mantra of "the relationship between Grayson and Quinn was debunked". Someone decided to take a closer look at the code since it was done in Twine which begs the question of why more people were needed to develop it. It turns out that Quinn gave special thanks to a number of people. One of those was Nathon Grayson. So now we're looking at the fact that Grayson helped the development of Depression Quest and would later go on to give it accolades or reviews in three separate game press articles without disclosure. So now we know they knew each other at least professionally looong before Grayson and Kotako admitted which makes anything they say on this even more suspect.

On top of it all, the Ian Miles Cheong from the Daily Beast, who has been doggedly following the exbf Gjoni and been a very vocal proponent of Quinn was also on the credits.

Original release on Moby Games
http://archive.today/LFrir

Full Report
http://theralphretort.com/zoe-quinn-couldnt-have-made-depression-quest-without-grayson/

Grayson responds, claims he only did an early alpha. Forgets that he's admitting to have known Quinn almost a full year earlier than he admitted and to having a role, if even a small one, in the development of a game he would later cover for different media sites which he never disclosed. Again, his impartiality becomes suspect.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0k8hA8CQAA3hUl.jpg:large

untilted
October 26 2014, 07:36:27 AM
haven't been following this topic closely for the last month or so ...

soooo ... after almost two months of #gamergate and "ethics in games journalism!" ... has anyone dug up juicy stuff with regards to video game publishers (EA, Activision, etc.) and their interaction with the gaming press? after all they aren't in the business for the ethics (or arguably for the games), but for the money ... so i expect quite a few "interesting things" to be dug up. and have there been already some campaigns to limit native advertising and "buying" favorable reviews by the video game industry?

or is #gamergate still in the phase of harassing women and people who disagree with them, while arguing about zoe quinn et al. at the same time as arguing that it's not about zoe quinn et al.?

Keorythe
October 26 2014, 11:30:44 AM
haven't been following this topic closely for the last month or so ...

soooo ... after almost two months of #gamergate and "ethics in games journalism!" ... has anyone dug up juicy stuff with regards to video game publishers (EA, Activision, etc.) and their interaction with the gaming press? after all they aren't in the business for the ethics (or arguably for the games), but for the money ... so i expect quite a few "interesting things" to be dug up. and have there been already some campaigns to limit native advertising and "buying" favorable reviews by the video game industry?

Plenty of stuff has been dug up and rehashed already. Are you looking for something new? The Jeff Gerstmann had long ago been brought up and used as an example. Discussions on swag, paid events, promotionals and so on have been brought up criticized and moved on. Of course the "journalists" asked the same question when that criticism fell on them and mostly it was seen as an attempt to shift blame from the journalists to the publishers for daring to make those offers (also ignoring the fact that they took them). This is really an apples to oranges view and at best you can go after the PR companies as representatives. Again, this has been addressed but whether or not big publishers lay down ground rules is dependent more on whether the reviewers/journalists and their editors are willing to resist this or not. So we're back to journalists getting their crap together.


or is #gamergate still in the phase of harassing women and people who disagree with them, while arguing about zoe quinn et al. at the same time as arguing that it's not about zoe quinn et al.?

The Zoe Quinn affair is brought up regularly by the journalists as both the start and the only reason why GamerGate should exist. Then they'll go on to explain how that situation is debunked and GG exists for no reason. This is a central talking point. Hence why I have the long post above with details of the affair which invalidates their talking point. Other than this, she really doesn't matter although she's still very active and was recently given a soapbox on CNN as a subject matter expert on GG. Quinn will continue to be talked because the media will keep injecting her into the conversation (and she'll keep saying stupid things) until they can find something better. The same goes for Sarkeesian who just recently kicked the hornets nest after some very dumb tweets about recent school shooting (the bodies were literally still warm) which ticked off many far beyond GamerGate. The media eats it up.

Using Newsweeks own recent statistics.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B02uq38CEAAN2h0.jpg

untilted
October 26 2014, 01:04:02 PM
Plenty of stuff has been dug up and rehashed already. Are you looking for something new? The Jeff Gerstmann had long ago been brought up and used as an example. Discussions on swag, paid events, promotionals and so on have been brought up criticized and moved on. Of course the "journalists" asked the same question when that criticism fell on them and mostly it was seen as an attempt to shift blame from the journalists to the publishers for daring to make those offers (also ignoring the fact that they took them). This is really an apples to oranges view and at best you can go after the PR companies as representatives. Again, this has been addressed but whether or not big publishers lay down ground rules is dependent more on whether the reviewers/journalists and their editors are willing to resist this or not. So we're back to journalists getting their crap together.

[...]
The Zoe Quinn affair is brought up regularly by the journalists as both the start and the only reason why GamerGate should exist. Then they'll go on to explain how that situation is debunked and GG exists for no reason. This is a central talking point. Hence why I have the long post above with details of the affair which invalidates their talking point. Other than this, she really doesn't matter although she's still very active and was recently given a soapbox on CNN as a subject matter expert on GG. Quinn will continue to be talked because the media will keep injecting her into the conversation (and she'll keep saying stupid things) until they can find something better. The same goes for Sarkeesian who just recently kicked the hornets nest after some very dumb tweets about recent school shooting (the bodies were literally still warm) which ticked off many far beyond GamerGate. The media eats it up.

Using Newsweeks own recent statistics.

i know what most of the media writes about #GG (and i'd certainly qualify as a "SJW" in your book ;) ) .. so no point in rehashing all these things - this discussion *is* boring and was already done ad nauseum in the last thread.

what i'm actually interested in is the new and interesting things that were brought up by #GG - just picking the keywords you gave me in your post it seems these things are even more of a fringe program than the mouthfrothing rage of #gamergate (http://topsy.com/analytics?q1=%23gamergate%20game%20spot%20OR%20%23 gamergate%20spike%20OR%20%23gamergate%20gerstmann% 20OR%20%23gamergate%20gamespot%20OR%20%23gamergate %20cnet&q2=%23gamergate%20social%20justice%20warrior%20OR% 20%23gamergate%20social%20justice%20warriors%20OR% 20%23gamergate%20SJW&q3=%23gamergate%20EA%20OR%20%23gamergate%20Electro nic%20Arts%20OR%20%23gamergate%20activision%20OR%2 0%23gamergate%20rock%20star&via=Topsy)

as you (and others) argue that #GG isn't about the things i mentioned before (namely: misogyny, harrassment, etc.) - which according you(?) is only a reaction to #GG-critics and made up by the media, it should be rather easy by now to provide a long list of blogs, vlogs etc. to discussions of misconduct that aren't part of this self-referential shitstorm.

i don't want to read the 47th rant why "death of the gamer" deserves the outrage and how only corrupted media would allow people like anita sarkeesian, leigh alexander, etc. to publish their opinions and positions (see above: SJW and everything ;) ).
i don't want to read the 98th exasperation of how females having sex, SJWs and feminists are "destroying video games".
i don't want to read the 3rd claim of victory for an ethical and independet games journalism by campaigning advertisers to retract ads from sites that have different positions/opinions than your own.

what i want to read is the reasonable and sensible things that came out of #GG (and i'm giving you here the benefit of the doubt that there's plenty of it) that actually tries to change how the video game industry interacts with the video game press. if it's old stuff being rehashed it's okay, but what i'm really interested in are the things that are genuine #GG stuff.

feel free to post links, articles, videos, anything ... because right now i haven't found any in this thread that don't fall into the things i mentioned already (and don't want to read for the 121st time)

if you want to see it this way: now you've got the chance to convince someone highly skeptical of the #GG "movement" that it's not all the hate and bile and ignorance that it displayed. ;)

F*** My Aunt Rita
October 27 2014, 12:25:33 AM
A woman had sex. Neckbeards angered.

Is that a decent summary?

Aea
October 27 2014, 01:51:17 AM
A woman had sex. Neckbeards angered.

Is that a decent summary?

Some girl tried to make everything about her sex? Some neckbeards tried to make everything about her sex?

:)

Devec
October 31 2014, 01:14:11 AM
A woman had sex. Neckbeards angered.

Is that a decent summary?

That would be a concise summary.

Seriously I always thought I was somewhat heavily involved in the gaming community, but after this whole shitstorm errupted I still have very little clue what is going on.

I think it has a lot to do with people of both sides relying on hearsay information and not listening to the opposition. Something which continues to polarize the entire "debate".

Melichor
October 31 2014, 02:44:57 PM
Now BBC has an interview with zoe quinn. I guess she wasn't in the news enough

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Lallante
October 31 2014, 05:26:31 PM
So any actual "games journalism activism" happened in the last few weeks? What's #gamergate doing?

Steph
October 31 2014, 05:52:53 PM
Well last week mainstream media started picking up on this. This week David Pakman, for example, had interviews with Brianna Wu...


http://youtu.be/ETVcInunAss

...Milo Yiannopoulos...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljIMMCQyexA

...Jennie Bharaj..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqwLyjcQ6SU

...and John Bain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaMccosnRMc&list=UUvixJtaXuNdMPUGdOPcY8Ag

TB also had a podcast thing with Kotaku's Steven Totilo about, indeed, journalistic ethics.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpmIrWqEUUU

Anita Sarkeesian was on the Colbert Report as well, but I haven't seen it because video data can't cross international borders for some reason.

EDIT: Of course, the "contact Gawker's advertisers" thing continues - there's a whole shitstorm there that I won't get into. It's also come out that, while Gawker condemns such activity as censorship, they have no objection to advertiser boycotts when directed at someone they disagree with (http://gawker.com/5359294/glenn-becks-ad-dollars-crater-in-wake-of-boycott).

Lall (and others), if you are interested in keeping up with the latest goings on, I recommend this subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/).

TheManFromDelmonte
October 31 2014, 07:29:37 PM
So any actual "games journalism activism" happened in the last few weeks? What's #gamergate doing?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1LlB33CEAAmJ9t.jpg:large

http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/10/30/the-top-22-most-ridiculous-things-said-by-8channers-about-anita-sarkeesians-appearance-on-the-colbert-report/

https://manboobz.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/ggg1.png?w=604

By the balls! But.. wait.. "they" don't have balls! The cheats!


https://manboobz.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/ggg5gang.png?w=604

I mean asking for money on kickstarter is basically a RICO violation isn't it?

https://manboobz.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/ggg8firestarts.png?w=604

um.


https://manboobz.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/ggg23oneshot.png?w=604

she has the power! The ritual is nearly complete. Only you can save mankind.

https://manboobz.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/ggg28weareplayerstheyrnpc.png?w=604

Even on FHC if someone went that overboard we'd assume they were trolling.

https://manboobz.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/ggg31fearherlife.png?w=604

https://manboobz.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/ggg37alreadywon.png?w=604

So. 8chan at least has lost any grip on reality its members ever possesed, it's a mob talking in circles proclaiming victory ever more breathlessly even as they're forced to count more and more people as enemies. GG itself.. I have no idea. But the section that was banned from 4chan are living up to their reputation.

One last pic cos I find it funny.
http://d1o2xrel38nv1n.cloudfront.net/files/2014/10/replicantethics.png

Dorvil Barranis
October 31 2014, 11:02:15 PM
Stephen Colbert on #gamergate, with Anna Sarkeesian interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fix2Bi0FShY

Steph
November 1 2014, 06:04:15 PM
David Pakman: Overnight, received many emails saying if I don't apologize for neutrality on #gamergate, I'm guilty of leading a hate mob against women (https://twitter.com/dpakman/status/528536369401171968)

Since the posters on FHC are(bafflingly) a lot more open to discussion, I thought I'd ask here: Those of you skeptical of or in opposition to GamerGate who saw the Pakman interviews, what is your opinion on them? Do you believe he was being unfair in one direction or another?

Not trying to bait anyone into an argument, just looking for a more nuanced opinion than 140 characters of namecalling. Seems like the latter is all Twitter is good for.

untilted
November 2 2014, 10:25:09 AM
Well, after looking at the Interviews I can certainly see where the sentiment comes from (though it's a far stretch to actually claim david is "leading the hate mob" or being unfair)

my arguments for this ...

the choice of interview partners: it's brianna vs milo + two pro-#GG people ... so you might say that in his choice of guests there's already a bias ... which isn't per se a problem in itself, if the interviews themselves are done critically. while david tries to do so, his execution of this idea falls short.

topics discussed: half of the interview with brianna is about things she (allegedly) did. while david tried to ask in a neutral tone, his questions and the setting were loaded. it's one thing to have personal interest in the reaction to threats and harassment, but it's a rather different thing to do so in the context of a public show - especially with the follow-up questions. at the same time this is not only a "technical" question but also a political one ("to take a stand"). she's a target of online harassment and to bring up questions that are "of interest" for his audience, which may or may not be overlapping with the perpetrators of said harassment is ... not smart.

if you want to start a neutral discussion about #GG, doing so by starting off with actions of an individual in a stress situation is NOT a good way.

the milo-response interview. well, what should i say? interviewing populists is always difficult for journalists (i have seen enough interviews on our national TV where the same thing happened). the classical argument of "oh, i AM a feminist! but there are too many feminazis around that should finally shut up about discrimination" to argue one owns position as "moderate". this IS a dishonest statement and it going unchallenged is problematic. milo did an excellent job on reframing his position as "middle ground" without david challenging this (e.g. the network graph argument - being "geographically" in the middle DOES NOT equate to being ideologically in the middle, it just means that you're controversial to both sides). the rest of the show then becomes a "neutral view on the misconduct of brianna wu" ... well, as mentioned before, at best you end up in a "he said, she said"-situation, at worst you're washing other peoples (not even necessarily dirty) laundry. not a good start for a "neutral" debate on #GG.

i'd assume that most of the critique aimed at david stems from those two interviews and his nonchalance in some remarks where he seems surprised that questions in neutral tone aren't necessarily neutral questions.

with jennie and TB it becomes a bit more interesting as these aren't aimed at actions of individuals but "philosophical positions".

after watching jennies other videos on the topic of game culture and her short bits an games in academia i have to say i'm not exactly impressed by her arguments, e.g. "voice for the voiceless - the customers", the reliance on journalists to "speak for them"(sic!) as an argument for #GG. TB brings up the problem that sites like metacritic have too much influence and therefore game reviews shouldn't touch socio-political issues and only report on the "technical" aspects of games is rather ... dumb. questioning the power of specific mechanisms in the games industry is great - i fully support this. but to bring this up as an argument why game reviews have to be more similar to reviews for a vacuum cleaner than to a review of a movie, book or any other cultural artifact is at best short sighted, at worst idiotic. to go from "aggregate scoring is implemented badly and used wrongly" to "politics and cultural studies don't have a place in gaming journalism" is highly problematic - esp. considering the campaign to target advertisers for being "slighted".

the problem i got with david's "neutrality" is, that he doesn't ask the critical questions required to bring the discussion actually to a neutral place, but uses a tame and conforming way of questioning that *sounds* neutral but doesn't touch the consistency of the arguments.
if TB's argument is the problematic aggregate scoring, the next question should actually be: "why then spend time arguing about politics in game reviews when the more relevant question should be: how can we topple aggregate scoring - ESPECIALLY if it's used in idiotic ways?"
if the argument is that current games journalism doesn't speak for the consumer: "why does games journalism in general has to speak for the consumer? isn't this the role of consumer advocacy groups?" and "do we really need another IGN and gamespot?"

TheManFromDelmonte
November 14 2014, 01:31:53 AM
I know this isn't very serious, but I like this image for its confused thematics.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2XNWIkIEAARx79.jpg

Keorythe
November 14 2014, 03:24:03 AM
I know this isn't very serious, but I like this image for its confused thematics.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2XNWIkIEAARx79.jpg

The art is the #58th by Alejandro Argandona in a series of the people involved in GamerGate. Blue is pro, red is anti, grey is neutral. Other than his twitter there isn't a single depository so you'll have to google his name for more.

For those wonder what it means.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/dorito-pope

When Blizzard CEO Mike Morhaime came out against "a very small group of anonymous trolls" who are giving gamers a bad name with harassment and hate at Blizzcon Keighley tried to make it about GamerGate (still largest trending topic on twitter) during a livestream leaving Morhaime in a lose/lose awkward position (the wtf expression on his face during this the whole thing made you feel for the guy). Since then Morhaime has refused to comment on the livestream event or clarify himself further. People were shocked that Keighley not only tried to pull this, but that he later plugged his own games awards show during Blizzcon. This coming from the guy who helped produced the cringe worthy VGX awards show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1OGexjaP1U

TheManFromDelmonte
November 14 2014, 11:17:57 AM
Thanks for the source.

And yes. The "Macedonian nod" theory. in the interest of providing balance in this serious thread I will say that many people do actually believe it was about the anonymous death and rape threats directed against women in the game industry. The women gators keep talking about so much they invented shorter codewords for them.