The lack of CCP backing

[smagd]

Seeing as how Mindstar and Loxy and their team sacrifice a month worth of weekends for the Tourney with no compensation *) and very little backing from CCP, I would normally suggest they should simply stop doing it.

Only I suspect they're doing it for their fans.

So maybe it's time for a fan-organized tourney. Cut that CCP name out of the credits. It's not like BIG couldn't come up with a few nice trophies and teams are already live streaming, so it would probably be easy to get a camera man.

What would it take to organize a proper fan tourney?

A tightly controlled deep wormhole system?
BIG to hold the prices?
Trusted organizers to work out the rules?
Officials to run the matches?
Ventrilo commentators?

*) Source: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.as ... &page=2#46 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1518116&page=2#46)

[Evil Synns]

Yeah can see it now "please don't come into XYZ system".

Every man and their dog would head there just to fuck it up.

Remember this is EVE, where everyone counts their e-peen in level of tears.

Also instant killing of ships out with border?

Richest alliances would just Super Pimp their implants

Although I agree its a hell of a shame and greatly appreciated what the guys do, we (as players) don't have their tools to do it.

[QwaarJet]

If the players had the tools to do it, we would rock it. But as it is, we need to put up with half a tournament.

[spiralJunkie]

doublepoast

[spiralJunkie]

Seeing as how Mindstar and Loxy and their team sacrifice a month worth of weekends for the Tourney with no compensation *) and very little backing from CCP, I would normally suggest they should simply stop doing it.

Only I suspect they're doing it for their fans.

So maybe it's time for a fan-organized tourney. Cut that CCP name out of the credits. It's not like BIG couldn't come up with a few nice trophies and teams are already live streaming, so it would probably be easy to get a camera man.

What would it take to organize a proper fan tourney?

A tightly controlled deep wormhole system?
BIG to hold the prices?
Trusted organizers to work out the rules?
Officials to run the matches?
Ventrilo commentators?


as soon as you remove the ccp legitimacy / godmode, people will meta the fuck out of it

also no ccp means less restrictions (implants, fitting, out of bounds etc

[Ruri]

It'd be grand, but anything short of a goofy one-off cage match (anyone remember Frigates of Fury?) would be doomed.

100% behind the idea of an all-volunteer team being given the tools to organize and broadcast it, but you do still need some CCP presence for teleporting people properly and making sure it doesn't turn into a I HAS GM POWERZ I POD U FOR TEH LULZ fracas.

[Evil Synns]

Got to say reading the post and all the bitching if I were Loxy et al, I would tell you all to suck my penis and fuck right off with the tournament prizes.

These guys are doing a "FAVOUR" by the looks of it, yeah it would be better if CCP threw their profits at this rather than fucking walking in stations but I see a lot of bitter and twisted vets shouting abuse about these first rounds not being shown and really they should STFU and get over it. Cause all they will do is result in it going back to 1 weekend and teams picked at random.

Would I want to see the fights, your fucking right I would. I love the tourney, I love sitting watching it out side with a beer. But I am also grateful that we get the tourney anyways.

So come on gents, be nice to these guys. as I said If I were them, I would just fucking walk away with your deposits and shout "TROLLED!"

[Daneel Trevize]

They can't claim to be doing it out of their own time and also refuse community help due to official quality demands. Either it's CCP's thing and they're bad, or it's not their thing so they can accept all the support they can get.

I believe a decent tourne can be held in w-space, you'd be able to camp + shipscan the static usage to ensure at least the ships & fits matched the rules. Keep it to t2 cruisers at most and perhaps have everyone get podded to reduce the likelyhood of implant being abused. I think someone already ran one from SHC that was t1 cruisers.
If you did it in an inhabited C1, you could even have the only BSs and even capships controlled by the inhabiting organisers (not that those would be wise to risk except assigning fighters to the camp.

[chadsexington]

Maybe a Tournament Team assembled like the CSM? Hire the completely unpaid positions, have a Tournament corp, only let in specific people for those positions, must be new toons with no SP, limit their dev powers via toggle - ie, for this weekend, you get some dev powers.

If they've coded the dev power portion correctly you could even limit their dev powers to be very specific things, ie teleport people to a specific location only, teleport people from your fleet only (so you can't grief an enemy FC during the tournament as a mistake)

You could easily have two "tournament" people there in fleet with each team, ready to "blow them up" should they screw up.

I would also assume you'd need some point rules regarding accidental unwarranted tournament explosions

[Raivi]

Considering how careful CCP is now about that sort of thing I really doubt you'd see players given that kind of power.

Even though we commentators are only going to be using slightly modified clients with no dev powers and only using them at the CCP officers in front of CCP staff, they've still been very clear to us about how limited our choice of actions will be while on those accounts.

I just wanted to use my own sphere client since it has pretty much the same powers but they didn't like that idea.

[Evil Synns]

They can't claim to be doing it out of their own time and also refuse community help due to official quality demands. Either it's CCP's thing and they're bad, or it's not their thing so they can accept all the support they can get.

I believe a decent tourne can be held in w-space, you'd be able to camp + shipscan the static usage to ensure at least the ships & fits matched the rules. Keep it to t2 cruisers at most and perhaps have everyone get podded to reduce the likelyhood of implant being abused. I think someone already ran one from SHC that was t1 cruisers.
If you did it in an inhabited C1, you could even have the only BSs and even capships controlled by the inhabiting organisers (not that those would be wise to risk except assigning fighters to the camp.

Go on then.. Do it.. see how it goes. Every player run event has always been abused, jeez PL even go on the gank nights now to relay the easy targets, I bet everyone even has spies in Eve Uni... THAT IS THE EVE COMMUNITY.

These guys are doing it off their own backs. Yes they can refuse community help.. holy Christ the eve community I wouldn't trust with my ugliest sister (if I had one)!

Bottom line is, IF YOU WANT TO DO IT.. go for. Come up with your own frecking rules. Thats what these guys have done, and its THEIR GAME AND THEIR BALL. So no TV till the finals.. FINE, its not what we want, likely not what they want. BUT ITS WHAT WERE GETTING AND I'M GRATEFUL! VERY

[FUzziBabes]

The thing that dissapoints me the most is that they never even asked the community "hey guys were doing the tourny, anyone want to live stream the first rounds for us?"

I'm pretty sure hordes of players would happily livestream the match, infact they have been. People have said they don't even care about how high quality it is or whether there was commentators. They just want to see the match itself.

I can see why CCP are doing it as they are, but the first rounds are just as interesting to watch as the last rounds, some matches that happen won't happen in the later rounds. For example, Hydra raping Atlas, leaving Atlas with one ship and then killing themselves in the first round, that won't happen in the later rounds and the drama that poured from that match was hilarious.

tl;dr ccp suck, ask the community for help next time. You moan you are volunteering your time for us, well why not ask the community for a bit of extra help? I mean hell threaten with bans if people volunteer and then fuck you over :roll:

[jonesbones]

I would gather that less than 5% of the EVE population even cares about the AT. Why CCP spends time on it is beyond me.

[Rudolf Miller]

I would gather that less than 5% of the EVE population even cares about the AT. Why CCP spends time on it is beyond me.

cuz it portrays the image the game requires skill to play.

[Zpiritual]

I don't really get why people are bitching about this tbh. CCP builds an entire fucking studio for this tournament, spend manpower coming up with ships for the winners. Broadcasting twice the number of matches would (I guess) cost twice the amount of money and take twice the amount of effort. This money is better spent on making the final weeks more interesting since the later matches are the ones actually matter after all.

I really don't see the problem with sorting out the bad themes and streaming the better teams. It's simple actually, if you want to be on "tv" stop sucking.

CCP may have a lot of flaws, the alliance tournament is not one of them.

EDIT: Not against the idea of a player run tournament though.

[Leboe]

I don't really get why people are bitching about this tbh. CCP builds an entire fucking studio for this tournament, spend manpower coming up with ships for the winners. Broadcasting twice the number of matches would (I guess) cost twice the amount of money and take twice the amount of effort. This money is better spent on making the final weeks more interesting since the later matches are the ones actually matter after all.

I really don't see the problem with sorting out the bad themes and streaming the better teams. It's simple actually, if you want to be on "tv" stop sucking.

CCP may have a lot of flaws, the alliance tournament is not one of them.

EDIT: Not against the idea of a player run tournament though.



If they did an audio only broadcast with video added later like last year they wouldnt need a studio and only need 1-2 CCP employees to be cameramen, with commentators being players in their own homes.

[Tellenta]

EVE players are funny creatures.

[Zpiritual]

I don't really get why people are bitching about this tbh. CCP builds an entire fucking studio for this tournament, spend manpower coming up with ships for the winners. Broadcasting twice the number of matches would (I guess) cost twice the amount of money and take twice the amount of effort. This money is better spent on making the final weeks more interesting since the later matches are the ones actually matter after all.

I really don't see the problem with sorting out the bad themes and streaming the better teams. It's simple actually, if you want to be on "tv" stop sucking.

CCP may have a lot of flaws, the alliance tournament is not one of them.

EDIT: Not against the idea of a player run tournament though.



If they did an audio only broadcast with video added later like last year they wouldnt need a studio and only need 1-2 CCP employees to be cameramen, with commentators being players in their own homes.

Did they put up videos of the 2010 qualifiers (was there even any?)?

[joe space]

everything that was, was on video last year.

it's as easy as what leboe said. or even easier - allow someone from the community to stream all the matches.

what bothers me, if true, is that the ccp employees doing this are expected to do it on their free time and not get paid for it. that is fucking criminal. they milk this shit for all it's worth and make big concessions in how it is done to turn it into a marketing mechanism. that is some greedy low down bull shit.

[Nobody_Holme]

everything that was, was on video last year.

it's as easy as what leboe said. or even easier - allow someone from the community to stream all the matches.

what bothers me, if true, is that the ccp employees doing this are expected to do it on their free time and not get paid for it. that is fucking criminal. they milk this shit for all it's worth and make big concessions in how it is done to turn it into a marketing mechanism. that is some greedy low down bull shit.

And this suprises you? :psyccp:

[walrus]

one ISD dude, with the camera client zoomed out, and the teams locked.

cant be that terribly hard?

[BuRniZZ]

I would gather that less than 5% of the EVE population even cares about the AT. Why CCP spends time on it is beyond me.

Because those 5% own 90% of the rest of the accounts as well.

[Bacchanalian]

If the players had the tools to do it, we would rock it. But as it is, we need to put up with half a tournament.

[smagd]

I'm reading fucking Twitter for team matchups, playing the fucking matches in my head, and missing all the shiny explosions....

... not that I'm missing much seeing that EVE has just died, mind.

Podding players to insure no implants is pretty mean, but it sorts the implant thing. Now how to sort boundary violations?

[Daneel Trevize]

So to recap:
no streaming/official record of the first 2 weeks outside of some mention of edited footage for use during the last 2 weeks
failure to count points fielded (match voided after start due to too many point)
failure to tally points correctly after matches
failure to check fits are valid (t2 rigs used)
an unresolvable tie for 28th place?

Also something about uncertainty that a mirror setup match today ended before or after a vital final seconds kill?
Oh and the server died mid tourne, and the client's buggy, and the test servers have been bugged yoyos for weeks.
Please correct me where I'm wrong.

Edit:
It died right at the end of a match - CCP's response (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1523041)
And contention/conflicting CCP responses that a Dram was/wasn't killed in time.

The Dramiel loss happened after the DB server took a nose dive, and we cannot confirm 100% that it would have died, had that not happened, so for this, we err on the side of caution and deem the ship not killed.

The immediate glance was that ship was killed, but after further investigation we decided to reverse the ruling.

The ruling about 28th is at the bottom of the posted rankings (http://www.eveonline.com/en/tournament/prequalstandings). Thought it's not technically accurate atm. Red are 28-29th when resolving 59th, which then makes Red 28th.
While they reword it, they haven't defined a fair way to resolve a true tie. (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1522981)

I guess the T2 rigs cheating doesn't change things in this case as it was an all killed for no losses result against the cheats.

[Angel Hun]

Its pretty simple, the community does not have the tools availible to do a tournament. :psyccp: monopolized that.

Unfortunatly we now have to put up with half a tournament, with rule bungling abound.

[scythus]

So to recap:
no streaming/official record of the first 2 weeks outside of some mention of edited footage for use during the last 2 weeks
failure to count points fielded (match voided after start due to too many point)
failure to tally points correctly after matches
failure to check fits are valid (t2 rigs used)
an unresolvable tie for 28th place?

Also something about uncertainty that a mirror setup match today ended before or after a vital final seconds kill?
Oh and the server died mid tourne, and the client's buggy, and the test servers have been bugged yoyos for weeks.
Please correct me where I'm wrong.

Edit:
It died right at the end of a match - CCP's response (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1523041)
And contention/conflicting CCP responses that a Dram was/wasn't killed in time.
[quote="CCP Zirnitra":1nn4bjtr]The Dramiel loss happened after the DB server took a nose dive, and we cannot confirm 100% that it would have died, had that not happened, so for this, we err on the side of caution and deem the ship not killed.

The immediate glance was that ship was killed, but after further investigation we decided to reverse the ruling.

The ruling about 28th is at the bottom of the posted rankings (http://www.eveonline.com/en/tournament/prequalstandings). Thought it's not technically accurate atm. Red are 28-29th when resolving 59th, which then makes Red 28th.
While they reword it, they haven't defined a fair way to resolve a true tie. (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1522981)

I guess the T2 rigs cheating doesn't change things in this case as it was an all killed for no losses result against the cheats.[/quote:1nn4bjtr]

Having attended multiple player-run tourneys, I can say that they have all been much more chaotic and disorganized and despite the fact that it seems to be the cool thing to hate on CCP about everything, I doubt a bunch of players could have done a better job. Not sure what you were expecting the tournament staff to do about the Server going down or a buggy client that a player run tourney would fix.

[Lana Torrin]

an unresolvable tie for 28th place?

Actually, this is covered in the rules...




If at any point, teams are level in Win/Loss and also level in points scored, the following will be used in order to determine ranking position.

1. If the teams disputing rank have fought each other at any point, the winner is higher.
2. The current ranking (W/L, then points) of the last team that you defeated. Higher is better.
3. The current ranking of the last team that defeated you. Again, higher is better.



This was in the original rules before the tournament started (I thought it was an odd way to do it which is why I remember it)

Edit: Hell it even explains how they came to the decision at the bottom of the ranking page now..

TBH, I would like to see more than 2 matches being played in a field of 64 to find the top 28..

[Daneel Trevize]

I know it's covered in the rules, see how I'd edited my post before you replied, and the corrected description in the rankings is thanks to yours truely. :P
Note from the thread that they haven't defined how to resolve a true tiebreaker yet, imagine the uproar if they announced their resolution mechanism only when the semifinals->final ranking comes down to a draw or something stupid, and it seems to favour one team.

scythus, no I don't expect the tourne staff can do much about a buggy client, but they are CCP and could just not schedule this PR event at the same time as a release that would reasonably be expected to cause bugs rather than just add content.

Forgot to bitch that the official site wasn't built to cope with Draw results, and doesn't even get the base value of T3s right, let alone account for fitting and ammo costs.

[Daneel Trevize]

We had already decided prior to the tournament start, that no alternate teams would be used, after the first round had been played.The fuck?! Rather than have pew, they gift teams facing forfeits a max points win!

[Gix Tyrionn]

So bitch about horrible teams being on "tv" then bitch that you don't get to watch the matches that weed out the horrible teams.

Do I have this right?


I'm just really disappointed that this is the only place winning a fairly even fight is rewarded outside epeen and killboard stats.

[Lana Torrin]

So bitch about horrible teams being on "tv" then bitch that you don't get to watch the matches that weed out the horrible teams.

Do I have this right?


Yes.

Although I have never bitched about horrible teams being on TV, and the 5 man stuff was significantly different from the 10 man stuff that it would have been nice to watch (although I hear a good portion of the game were boring as fuck)

[Raivi]

On a slightly more positive note, the new CCP Youtube page theme (http://www.youtube.com/user/CCPGAMES?blend=1&ob=5) is up in preparation for all the AT9 videos that will appear there soon. Sexeh.

[Daneel Trevize]

*cough* TRON *cough*

[Leboe]

engine trails :nostradamus:

[spiralJunkie]

I don't really get why people are bitching about this tbh. CCP builds an entire fucking studio for this tournament, spend manpower coming up with ships for the winners. Broadcasting twice the number of matches would (I guess) cost twice the amount of money and take twice the amount of effort. This money is better spent on making the final weeks more interesting since the later matches are the ones actually matter after all.

I really don't see the problem with sorting out the bad themes and streaming the better teams. It's simple actually, if you want to be on "tv" stop sucking.

CCP may have a lot of flaws, the alliance tournament is not one of them.

EDIT: Not against the idea of a player run tournament though.



If they did an audio only broadcast with video added later like last year they wouldnt need a studio and only need 1-2 CCP employees to be cameramen, with commentators being players in their own homes.

not really

[Boltorano]

So if CCP employees do this on their own time, I'm assuming that Nvidia, Alienware, Shattered Crystal, and EVGA didn't pay for those logos I saw on the big login banner today as well? :psyccp: