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Aea
May 18 2014, 09:41:32 PM
I've been seeing a lot of articles recently, particular by non-white authors arguing that millennials are going to contribute greatly to increased racism in America.

Here's a recent one: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/05/millennials_racism_and_mtv_poll_young_people_are_c onfused_about_bias_prejudice.html

What are your thoughts on this? Is racism a growing problem or a dying trend? Are we entering a post-racial world or are policies like Affirmative Action still required and/or more necessary then ever?

RazoR
May 19 2014, 04:06:43 AM
The more you make it a problem the more it becomes.

That said, forgetting history causes it to repeat.

Cue1*
May 19 2014, 05:26:47 AM
I've come to believe that the racism of today isn't really racism, or at least racism as I think of it. The article touches on it, but doesn't quite hit the nail. It's not about the fact that you're black, or white, or Asian, it's the fact that the culture you grow up in dictates the kind of person you are. Black people don't get arrested more because they're black, they get arrested more because they commit crimes more often, and usually with less planning. It's not the race, it's the culture.

We always talk about the "negative" racism but never the "positive"(the quotes are important because all racism is wrong, but a realistic part of our world). How about the Asian kids who are known for being a math wiz because they're Asian? Society says that it's not that they study hard, it's that they're Asian, and everyone knows that Asians are amazing at math, or even just academics in general. The reality is that they are pushed by their some parts of their culture to study hard and focus themselves on their academics, and surprisingly enough they're good at them because of it. Similar to blacks are pushed by some parts of the culture to commit crimes impulsively.

Yesterday's racism was the case of bigotry, hatred, and fear. Today's racism is a culture clash.

F*** My Aunt Rita
May 19 2014, 06:53:12 AM
It's not the race, it's the culture.

Got a source for this?

Zeekar
May 19 2014, 07:00:49 AM
It's not the race, it's the culture.

Got a source for this?

you want a source for his opinion?

Cue1*
May 19 2014, 11:59:24 AM
It's not the race, it's the culture.

Got a source for this?

you want a source for his opinion?

This. :psyduck:

RazoR
May 19 2014, 02:28:06 PM
It's not the race, it's the culture.

Got a source for this?

you want a source for his opinion?

This. :psyduck:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m6/LionelCantu/oh-my-word.jpg

Dorvil Barranis
May 20 2014, 03:00:21 AM
Of course this is mainly a US focused perspective for me.


Black people don't get arrested more because they're black, they get arrested more because they commit crimes more often, and usually with less planning.

Racist spotted. Seriously though, it is a complicated mix of several factors that feed in to each other. On average, black people have less money, poor people are more likely to commit petty crime then well off people, cops keep an eye on them more (arguably understandably so, as they are more likely to be committing a crime), they get sentenced worse, people who have already been in prison are more likely to go back then people who have never been to prison, people who have been in prison are more likely to be poor, etc.

It is much more complicated then just "black people commit crimes more often with less planning". That may be true, but is not the entire picture.

As to the questions from the OP:


Is racism a growing problem or a dying trend?
I think racism harms less people now then it did 20 years ago, and 20 years ago was not as bad as 50 years ago. I think that more people say more stupid things on the internet now then 20 years ago, but that is not as bad as people getting fire bombed for being in an inter racial relationship, and yeah, I have a friend of my parents lose his black girlfriend to an apartment fire from that.

Are we entering a post-racial world or are policies like Affirmative Action still required and/or more necessary then ever?
Not really a post racial world, but affirmative action has always been controversial. I think it has its place, but can definitely lead to stupid things.

I want to hold the third slot at my shop until I can get in a black artist, (or maybe a woman), so I might be practicing a bit of affirmative action, but it is more about my relationship to the community I am in, then trying to do it to make the world a better place.

Tellenta
May 20 2014, 04:55:06 AM
It's not the race, it's the culture.

Got a source for this?

you want a source for his opinion?

This. :psyduck:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m6/LionelCantu/oh-my-word.jpg

After a long search I found it.

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?16783-Millennials-and-Racism&p=1089029#post1089029

Cue1*
May 20 2014, 06:45:54 AM
Racist spotted. Seriously though, it is a complicated mix of several factors that feed in to each other. On average, black people have less money, poor people are more likely to commit petty crime then well off people, cops keep an eye on them more (arguably understandably so, as they are more likely to be committing a crime), they get sentenced worse, people who have already been in prison are more likely to go back then people who have never been to prison, people who have been in prison are more likely to be poor, etc.

It is much more complicated then just "black people commit crimes more often with less planning". That may be true, but is not the entire picture.

You really just restated my point with more detail. The reasons you listed are all reasons why blacks commit more crimes.

smuggo
May 20 2014, 05:52:11 PM
Is the system designed to keep the black man down because he commits more crime or does the black man commit more crime because the system keeps him down?

With regards to the OP. In these austere times I'm quite sure there's a number of white folk feeling disenfranchised with schemes like affirmative action/positive discrimination on the go (in fact I'm quite sure these schemes are counter productive). It's becoming increasingly hard to raise any concerns about race relations if you're white because 'you're not a 'person of colour' so you can't understand our oppression from your 'position of privilege', even though those doing the shouting seem to be outrageously middle class. The original article talks about 'colourblindness' but also about how unique 'people of colour' are in terms of their worldview and how much they can add to the workplace. Are you different because of your skin tone or not m80?

Given the fact that the multicultural experiment is in the process of failing but nobody is applying the brakes and there's a few studies about showing that 'diverse' population groups don't mix well I don't doubt that we'll see an increase in racism (from all sides) in the near future.

Dorvil Barranis
May 20 2014, 06:05:50 PM
Given the fact that the multicultural experiment is in the process of failing but nobody is applying the brakes and there's a few studies about showing that 'diverse' population groups don't mix well I don't doubt that we'll see an increase in racism (from all sides) in the near future.

You talking about the US or Europe when you say the "multicultural experiment" is failing? What does that really mean? What is the failure, and if you think it is failing, what do you think should be done? End all immigration? Split up mixed populations? ??

Djan Seriy Anaplian
May 20 2014, 06:19:03 PM
The problem with the idea of privilege is that its proponents are woefully under-equipped to sell it in a palatable way to the masses. I think it's quite clear that it exists, and that racism is something far more systematic, but the left just don't seem to understand that most people aren't particularly bright and would benefit from a more reductionist explanation as opposed to the rather aggressive representation of 'privilege' currently peddled on/in tmblr/instagram/twitter/student campuses. This aggressiveness stifles debate (and it is a debate that needs to be had) and pushes people further to the right.

Rakshasa The Cat
May 20 2014, 06:48:22 PM
Look; a post that makes the assumption that the reason why more people aren't following the 'left' is that we have too many stupid people.

Alistair
May 20 2014, 06:55:51 PM
-ism's will never stop being an issue as long as someone can either have power over another, or use the -ism to gain power or benefit over others.

Frankly, most stereotypes attributed to racism are actually far more attributable to low socio economic status, often caused by low levels of education.

Real dictionary-definition-racists, people who view other skin colors or ethnicities as "lesser" than their own and belive those races/ethnicities should be treated differently purely because of race/ethnicity, are, IMO, a quickly dying breed in the United States.

Keorythe
May 20 2014, 07:01:46 PM
Given the fact that the multicultural experiment is in the process of failing but nobody is applying the brakes and there's a few studies about showing that 'diverse' population groups don't mix well I don't doubt that we'll see an increase in racism (from all sides) in the near future.

You talking about the US or Europe when you say the "multicultural experiment" is failing? What does that really mean? What is the failure, and if you think it is failing, what do you think should be done? End all immigration? Split up mixed populations? ??

I believe the answer would be to remove rules that demand diversity for the sake of diversity. Diversity in itself has been held up as a social standard within businesses and groups for a while now. However, the tangible benefits are near impossible to quantify except in very limited circumstances. Requiring an African American or Asian American as a customer representative makes sense, but requiring one of them as a cubicle bound account does not. It's mostly as a "were not racist" card and while you can try to argue that it is helping the community, understand that not all areas have a destitute "community" of whatever race you're seeking.

I think the main issue today with Millenials and race leans more towards what Larkonis mentioned earlier. The litmus test of purity makes discussing the subject difficult for anyone not of that color, sex, or orientation. This leads to many opposing what is perceived as racist without actually understanding the subject because the subject is either popular or because they fear being labeled as one themselves. And getting that label even in error can have drastic consequences. Millenials don't get to ride the fence these days on hot button topics. Hence you understand the quotes from the article:


they’re committed to an ideal of colorblindness that leaves them uncomfortable with race, opposed to measures to reduce racial inequality, and a bit confused about what racism is.


Although 73 percent believe that we should talk “more openly” about bias, only 20 percent say they’re comfortable doing so

But the OP's article wants to change the goalposts by redefining racism.

Take for instance the following:

No, racism is better understood as white supremacy—anything that furthers a broad hierarchy of racist inequity, where whites possess the greatest share of power, respect, and resources, and blacks the least.

By defining racism in this manner, you remove the general term of racism and apply it strictly to whites. This almost give minorities a free pass to commit acts of racism without fear of consequence as it is doing so is in the name of "equality". Instead of racism it's all about "checking your privilege".

Then we arrive at the next quote:
When a black teenager is unfairly profiled by police, we say it’s “because of the color of his skin,” which—as a construction—avoids the racism at play, from the segregated neighborhood the officer patrols to the pervasive belief in black criminality that shapes our approach to crime.

Again the author is attempting to redefine racism from a skin color issue to one based on status or finances. This isn't the first time that Jamelle Bouie has attempted to make this connection before. But what's really funny is that the colorblindness that he talks about is kids coming into the world with a no racism mindset and having difficulty understanding why some forms of it are given a pass. For people like Jamelle Bouie or Donna Brazile, the idea that the new generation is more likely to call them out on their views as racist is a bit disconcerting.

Unfortunately I can't speak for how things are happening across the pond in the EU. Someone else will have to chime in for that side.

Djan Seriy Anaplian
May 20 2014, 07:05:32 PM
Look; a post that makes the assumption that the reason why more people aren't following the 'left' is that we have too many stupid people.

'We' being the general populace? It's not necessarily stupidity, but the whole idea of privilege theory is quite complex: most people simply don't have the time or inclination to care. The reason 'people' (i use the term 'left' loosely, if you want to define the proponents you own way then do so) discuss race, wealth, gender etc. together is that according to privilege theory, these metrics intersect and interact with one another. For example, you might have gender privilege, but not financial privileges, this might then effect the choices and experiences you've had in different areas, depending on how important privileged gender identities or financial statuses are in that realm. If you try and define it more succinctly in academic terms, then an analysis of institutional marginalisation in a whole host of areas is needed - this is not a simple thing. Shit, it hurts my head to think about it and i'm supposed to be relatively intelligent/open minded.

Ralara
May 20 2014, 09:14:19 PM
I've been seeing a lot of articles recently, particular by non-white authors arguing that millennials are going to contribute greatly to increased racism in America.

Here's a recent one: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/05/millennials_racism_and_mtv_poll_young_people_are_c onfused_about_bias_prejudice.html

What are your thoughts on this? Is racism a growing problem or a dying trend? Are we entering a post-racial world or are policies like Affirmative Action still required and/or more necessary then ever?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VifdBFp5pnw






And also re: crime, education, employment etc.

Socio-economic situation and culture, all of which were forced on 'em throughout the last 200 years. They're now beginning to climb out of it, slowly.

But it aint due to skin colour. White ppls (see Jerry Springer / Jeremy Kyle guests) are just as likely to be shitty parents / criminals / drug addicts / wastes of space.

It's about money.

More black people are poor, proportionally, than white people. That's why "they commit more crimes" or "they don't graduate as much".

and our grandparents (and parents... and in some cases us) did that to them.

way-hay.

Aea
May 20 2014, 09:34:54 PM
...

...why blacks commit more crimes.

What's interesting is that while this is backed up by statistics, black people are generally prosecuted MUCH MUCH more harshly compared to white people in the United States for the same crimes. This is even when adjusted for factors like income, education, etc. There is arguably some racism here. The problem for me is that this is the problem that needs to be solved. Giving people a "leg up" in other areas doesn't do anything to address this problem.



Given the fact that the multicultural experiment is in the process of failing but nobody is applying the brakes and there's a few studies about showing that 'diverse' population groups don't mix well I don't doubt that we'll see an increase in racism (from all sides) in the near future.

You talking about the US or Europe when you say the "multicultural experiment" is failing? What does that really mean? What is the failure, and if you think it is failing, what do you think should be done? End all immigration? Split up mixed populations? ??

I'm pretty sure he's referring to Europe. The problem seems to be one of assimilation. In the US we have a culture that encourages assimilation while retaining their culture. In Europe, particularly in regard to some very vocal muslim communities this idea doesn't exist. I'm not sure how over-stated this problem is however, since I'm not European.


The problem with the idea of privilege is that its proponents are woefully under-equipped to sell it in a palatable way to the masses. I think it's quite clear that it exists, and that racism is something far more systematic, but the left just don't seem to understand that most people aren't particularly bright and would benefit from a more reductionist explanation as opposed to the rather aggressive representation of 'privilege' currently peddled on/in tmblr/instagram/twitter/student campuses. This aggressiveness stifles debate (and it is a debate that needs to be had) and pushes people further to the right.

Agreed, a lot of the people complaining about the idea of privilege come off as people who just want something to be offended about.


Look; a post that makes the assumption that the reason why more people aren't following the 'left' is that we have too many stupid people.

The left is drowning in as much stupidity as the right.


I believe the answer would be to remove rules that demand diversity for the sake of diversity.

Agree entirely. Hiring somebody because of their skin color is as absurd as not hiring somebody because of their skin color in my book.

Cue1*
May 20 2014, 09:45:31 PM
What's interesting is that while this is backed up by statistics, black people are generally prosecuted MUCH MUCH more harshly compared to white people in the United States for the same crimes. This is even when adjusted for factors like income, education, etc. There is arguably some racism here. The problem for me is that this is the problem that needs to be solved. Giving people a "leg up" in other areas doesn't do anything to address this problem.

It's a bit of a catch 22. Black people generally receive harsher punishments because the idea is that they are repeat offenders. The longer that they stay off the street, the better. They're considered repeat offenders because statistically they ARE. However, the reason that they're repeat offenders is often because they get harsh punishments, spend years in prison, and are unable to adapt to civilian life once they're out, so they turn back to crime, making the statistic true.

From the LEO side, part of the problem is that for many criminals, prison isn't a punishment. For a lot of gangs, prison is college, where they learn from their elders. For the more business oriented, prison is often just a different customer base. Worse yet, the people who might try to reform their lives after prison find it hard to do so because of the stigma involved for one, but mostly because they don't know how to return to being civilians. I know this is a bit of a side track, but this -much like anything else in the world worth discussing- has a lot of other things that loop into it.

Ophichius
May 20 2014, 10:44:13 PM
What's interesting is that while this is backed up by statistics, black people are generally prosecuted MUCH MUCH more harshly compared to white people in the United States for the same crimes. This is even when adjusted for factors like income, education, etc. There is arguably some racism here. The problem for me is that this is the problem that needs to be solved. Giving people a "leg up" in other areas doesn't do anything to address this problem.

It's a bit of a catch 22. Black people generally receive harsher punishments because the idea is that they are repeat offenders. The longer that they stay off the street, the better. They're considered repeat offenders because statistically they ARE. However, the reason that they're repeat offenders is often because they get harsh punishments, spend years in prison, and are unable to adapt to civilian life once they're out, so they turn back to crime, making the statistic true.

From the LEO side, part of the problem is that for many criminals, prison isn't a punishment. For a lot of gangs, prison is college, where they learn from their elders. For the more business oriented, prison is often just a different customer base. Worse yet, the people who might try to reform their lives after prison find it hard to do so because of the stigma involved for one, but mostly because they don't know how to return to being civilians. I know this is a bit of a side track, but this -much like anything else in the world worth discussing- has a lot of other things that loop into it.

It seems to me that the answer here is bloody simple: Fix our fucking prisons.

US prisons are not run as rehabilitation facilities, just as long duration holding pens and torture facilities. So yeah, no shit anyone going into one of those isn't going to improve. We need to adopt a treatment model for our prison system, but between the profitability of private prisons, and the lack of political will to see criminals as people, we'll never, ever actually do that.

-O

Djan Seriy Anaplian
May 20 2014, 11:14:20 PM
The entire US justice system is pretty screwy to be honest.

Keorythe
May 21 2014, 12:06:13 AM
US prisons are not run as rehabilitation facilities, just as long duration holding pens and torture facilities. So yeah, no shit anyone going into one of those isn't going to improve. We need to adopt a treatment model for our prison system, but between the profitability of private prisons, and the lack of political will to see criminals as people, we'll never, ever actually do that.

-O

I gotta disagree with you there. The prisons aren't the problem. While we can argue whether they're intended to be rehabilitation or punitive centers is kind of moot. Rehabilitation is bullshit. Once a person does their time, they're still screwed in life. The ability to get a decent job is very small in the US. Access to a number of benefits regular citizens enjoy is gone. Crime re-occurs for many because it's the easier option to make ends meet.

But this applies to every race.

As to Aea's original point. Can you point me to the race that has the culture that promotes crime as a positive in music, media, and dress?

Ralara
May 21 2014, 03:22:07 AM
As to Aea's original point. Can you point me to the race that has the culture that promotes crime as a positive in music, media, and dress?

I can point you to the socio-economic and age-range bracket.

Cue1*
May 21 2014, 04:15:36 AM
US prisons are not run as rehabilitation facilities, just as long duration holding pens and torture facilities. So yeah, no shit anyone going into one of those isn't going to improve. We need to adopt a treatment model for our prison system, but between the profitability of private prisons, and the lack of political will to see criminals as people, we'll never, ever actually do that.

-O

I gotta disagree with you there. The prisons aren't the problem. While we can argue whether they're intended to be rehabilitation or punitive centers is kind of moot. Rehabilitation is bullshit. Once a person does their time, they're still screwed in life. The ability to get a decent job is very small in the US. Access to a number of benefits regular citizens enjoy is gone. Crime re-occurs for many because it's the easier option to make ends meet.

But this applies to every race.

As to Aea's original point. Can you point me to the race that has the culture that promotes crime as a positive in music, media, and dress?

Agree with Keorythe here. The prisons themselves are not the problem. Yes, they are holding pens, that's the intended function. Working as intended. Serious criminal offender is not on the streets to offend again. The issue is when they get out. Congrats, you did your time, now you're free to go, and we don't want to see you ever again. Except there's nothing to ease them into society. And even if there were, the rest of your life is a sigma. Good luck getting work in the first seven years when you have to report being a felon to any potential employer.

Ophichius
May 21 2014, 04:43:09 PM
US prisons are not run as rehabilitation facilities, just as long duration holding pens and torture facilities. So yeah, no shit anyone going into one of those isn't going to improve. We need to adopt a treatment model for our prison system, but between the profitability of private prisons, and the lack of political will to see criminals as people, we'll never, ever actually do that.

-O

I gotta disagree with you there. The prisons aren't the problem. While we can argue whether they're intended to be rehabilitation or punitive centers is kind of moot. Rehabilitation is bullshit. Once a person does their time, they're still screwed in life. The ability to get a decent job is very small in the US. Access to a number of benefits regular citizens enjoy is gone. Crime re-occurs for many because it's the easier option to make ends meet.

But this applies to every race.

As to Aea's original point. Can you point me to the race that has the culture that promotes crime as a positive in music, media, and dress?

Agree with Keorythe here. The prisons themselves are not the problem. Yes, they are holding pens, that's the intended function. Working as intended. Serious criminal offender is not on the streets to offend again. The issue is when they get out. Congrats, you did your time, now you're free to go, and we don't want to see you ever again. Except there's nothing to ease them into society. And even if there were, the rest of your life is a sigma. Good luck getting work in the first seven years when you have to report being a felon to any potential employer.

The prisons are not the sole problem, they are however a major part of the problem. Keorythe, why do you believe rehabilitation is bullshit? You've basically conceded every single point for why rehabilitation should be a focus. Felons have very limited employment opportunities after prison, though realistically they didn't have them before either. They tend to turn to crime because they can't make the system work for them, so they work outside it. Rehabilitation should be focused on teaching useful work and life skills to prevent them from simply going right back to crime to support themselves.

And Cue1, if you really just want criminals off the street and don't care about rehabilitating them, you may as well just go all the way to summary execution of the convicted. You've just written them off as ever being worthwhile members of society. Prison is the only point in that cycle where the state has significant ability to alter the individual, throwing that opportunity away because it's expensive, or difficult, or not 100% effective, or because you personally find the idea of (god forbid) helping criminals to be abhorrent is cowardly and pathetic.

-O

Straight Hustlin
May 21 2014, 04:48:45 PM
To be fair, if the War on Drugs retardedness ever finally stops, I think we would see a huge drop in the prison pops, especially among minorities.

But the prison companies and the guard unions are doing everything they possibly can to prevent that from happening.