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Daneel Trevize
March 1 2012, 10:50:35 PM
http://kb4.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=19448
http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11663
http://narwhals.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12603893
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12603893
What's going on here then?

penelope pitbull
March 2 2012, 06:12:58 PM
From an AHARM perspective, we were doing PVE when we were invited to come help kill a 50 man T3 blob. We went, "sure why not" only to be disappointed when it turned out that we were in fact the blob. So yeah, total overkill - felt kinda bad about it tbh.

Fatyn
March 2 2012, 07:32:15 PM
it's all so4p's fault :)

Daneel Trevize
March 2 2012, 07:47:09 PM
You should kick him from your corp... oh wait. ;)

Asayanami Dei
March 2 2012, 11:08:11 PM
Also, what happened in the ADHOC vs RNK fight? (apart from ADHOC losing a bunch of caps)

We were in the middle of evicting some people, a k162 opened up with KEEN on the other side, we grabed what we had avaliable and started shooting. Sadly KEEN had too many bhaalgorns and bubbles with them for us to stand a chance, but it was a fun fight. I've got it on fraps, and so do they, so there might be a video comming out soon if you're interested.

There will be a Battle Report soon indeed, and i confirm that was a very fun fight. Always nice to fight against ADHC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrwfIFsXrfs

LordsServant
March 3 2012, 03:18:06 AM
Also, what happened in the ADHOC vs RNK fight? (apart from ADHOC losing a bunch of caps)

We were in the middle of evicting some people, a k162 opened up with KEEN on the other side, we grabed what we had avaliable and started shooting. Sadly KEEN had too many bhaalgorns and bubbles with them for us to stand a chance, but it was a fun fight. I've got it on fraps, and so do they, so there might be a video comming out soon if you're interested.

There will be a Battle Report soon indeed, and i confirm that was a very fun fight. Always nice to fight against ADHC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrwfIFsXrfs

This is what I want to do. That looks so fun and awesome. Amazing GFs to be had...

Daneel Trevize
March 6 2012, 09:28:56 PM
http://www.evenews24.com/2012/03/01/intrigue-theft-and-murder-in-j173506/

Also, can't resist linking these:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12649116 Baws, and apparently Vindi loss due to logoff aggro timer bug.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12618153 The roaming tengu fleet home I heard mutterings of, or just a hole-closing setup?

Over the weekend+monday, w-space punched above it's weight for cap ship kills it seems. And still some people don't get why there's faction+ fits on such ships.

G0hme
March 8 2012, 03:06:26 PM
The Guillotine Test.

It was EU primetime and we had just started running sites in order to put much needed space gold into the wallets of our members. Incoming Wormholes, including our static had been closed and we had placed a scout to cycle probes to keep eye out for new signatures. We had just completed the 3rd capital escalation wave when our home picket reported a new signature in system. The signature was quickly scanned down and the scout reported a member of Guillotine Therapy sitting on the hole. Our site-running fleet quickly dispersed and warped back to our POS, leaving a Carrier and a Dreadnaught in the site as they were being scrambled by the remaining sleepers.

As we were figuring out what do to, our scout reported the incoming hostile fleet and its composition. Devoter, a mix of T3s, three Bhaalgorns, a couple of Battleships and an Archon. Knowing that this would be the sure death of our stuck capitals we decided to engage with the full size of our available sub- and capital fleet. We were able to gather three Dreadnaughts and four Carriers, and we were fairly certain that this would be enough to outlast the hostiles.

As soon as the Dreads landed they immediately engaged the hostile Archon which began to dip into armor quickly. But due to their quick Bhaalgorn pilots, our Dreads were quickly neutralized rendering them useless unless we were able to replenish their capacitors. A long battle of trying to replenish the Dreads capacitor while keeping our sub-capitals alive and our Carriers capacitor level high now began.

It took us a few attempts to replenish our Dreadnaughts, but their Archon was starting to go down, at which point they brought in another Archon to aid the battle. But eventually we got our Dreadnaughts capacitor aligned which resulted in the death of one of their Archons. Shortly after it was destroyed our Dreadnaughts were again neutralized and rendered useless for the time being. Their Bhaalgorns now tried to cap out our Carriers, and were mildly succesful in the beginning, seeing as we has brought a few brand new triage pilots to the fight. But they quickly got a hang of bouncing their cap and managing their own capacitor level. However in the midst of this confusion GT were quick to utilize it and killed a couple of our Cruisers. Again a game of bouncing capacitor began, with neither side gaining any advantage over the other, until one of our Dread prematurely entered siege, which GT again were quick to notice and started to burn it down. Fortunately the Dreads siege cycle ended with 20% structure left and was repped back up. However one of our Archons had to triage to save the dying Dread and was now in danager of receiving the same treatment as the Dread has just moments before. This time we were out of luck and the Archon was swiftly neuted and killed before its Triage cycle could end. Thankfully the pilot was not caught in the HIC bubble and could escape to bring another Archon to the field. We soon realized that we were not able to take down any of their sub-cap ships with our own fleet, so our FC ordered the remaining friendly subcaps to break points and rendevous at the POS. Once they reconvened at the POS they were to launch an assault on the GT fleetbooster whom were sitting on their connecting wormhole unguarded. Seeing what we were trying to do, GT deactivated their HIC bubble and their entire fleet warped off.

At this point we had traded a carrier and couple of subscaps for a carrier. And this is where we made the one big mistake of the fight. When the enemy Archon had warped in, it had spawned the 4th Capital Escalation wave in the sleeper site which added six Warp Scrambling Sleeper Battleships to the fight. Still battle hungry, a call went out to pursue GT to their wormhole, and this is where everything went wrong. The Sleepers, having decided not to warp scramble any of the GT pilots, were now holding on to half of our capital fleet, resulting in only a few making it away to the new battlefield but now severely outmatched. GT reinforced their fleet with a Moros, and we were now starting to lose our Capital Fleet. Although a few of our remaining Capitals managed to break the sleeper points, the result could not be undone and our Capitals were quickly destroyed.

The engagement lasted the good part of 50 minutes and here is the summary: http://lfarm.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12585756

We were absolutely gutted on how quickly the tide had instantly turned, but we gained a lesson for life. We were still excited about the fight and were essential proud of having bashed it out with an entity like Guillotine Therapy instead for running back to our POS. The ISK ratio might be overwhelmingly in their favor, but the experience we gained from this were priceless and well worth the assets lost in the progress.

We have now begun replacing what was lost, so that next time Rooks and Kings drops by, the result will be quite different.

Thanks to Guillotine Therapy for the epic fight, see you at the next K162.

/G0hme
Lead Farmers
Kill it with Fire

two step
March 8 2012, 04:14:39 PM
Really good BR, thanks for posting. It is great to see new BR posters in here...

Also, wormhole folks should vote for me - http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=427

Orar Ironfist
March 10 2012, 03:00:10 AM
wrong forum for naglfar discussion - grarr

firewalker
March 11 2012, 08:28:59 PM
http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11779

Was a nasty little slug fest. Phoenix and Rev self destructed :x

Also vote for Two Step :psycsm:

Yashir Wong
March 16 2012, 08:14:57 PM
There's a joke shared within my corp and a few others. Wormhole space is ruled by a mysterious god, named Bob. He controls connections for all of w-space and in his realm, you are at his mercy. It's silly, but you can't deny the inherent chaos of wormhole mechanics. We've got nothing else to blame, why not Bob?

It started as a pretty boring evening. We were sitting on our static connection with eyes on a manticore. He was trying to probe down the K162 we had just opened. We already had 5 or 6 people camped and waiting to convert his ship to slag. Can you tell we were a little bored?

Right about this time someone had the genius idea to check for new signatures. We checked not 20 minutes ago, but why not again? You never really know when something interesting might appear. Sure enough a K162 had just opened into our system. Our first scouting run showed 2 hics and a small handful of shield combat ships ready on the wormhole. Ask and ye shall recieve.

When we're just about formed up we send another scout through the wormhole. This time, they get vaporized trying to get more intel on the system as about 20 shield ships were now crowded around the hole itching for a fight. Being the kindly neighbors we are, we obliged.

The rest...well, let me pull out the slides for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNLodOzxTdU&hd=1url

Less than 10% structure on both those capitals. At least we documented it.

It was far from a perfect fight, but it represents my favorite part of wormhole space. Where else in the game can you randomly connect to a 20 man gang ready to drop capitals that wasn't there 2 minutes before?

All hail Bob.

Suleiman Shouaa
March 16 2012, 08:29:41 PM
It always amuses me that more people don't pack Conflag/Hail/Void nowadays.

Ampoliros
March 16 2012, 08:33:30 PM
aww, you had a free rokh at the end there and you blew it up :(

Yashir Wong
March 16 2012, 10:54:06 PM
I don't fly Rohks. What would I do with one? Also the logistics of getting a pilot into it would be tedious. It was easier to just send it to the killboards.

Smuggo
March 16 2012, 11:10:48 PM
aww, you had a free rokh at the end there and you blew it up :(

If you live in WHs what the fuck would you need to jew abadoned Rokh's for?

Ampoliros
March 17 2012, 02:20:02 AM
I don't fly Rohks. What would I do with one? Also the logistics of getting a pilot into it would be tedious. It was easier to just send it to the killboards.

Thought you guys were on a wh back to your home system? That'd be like, two minutes to wait :P



aww, you had a free rokh at the end there and you blew it up :(

If you live in WHs what the fuck would you need to jew abadoned Rokh's for?

Mate, just because we're all spacerich doesn't mean that we would turn away free stuff earned in ~glorious spacebattle~

Yashir Wong
March 17 2012, 03:39:15 AM
All the while we're sitting here in a hostile wormhole while someone's got to slowboat out in their pod. And again. It's a Rohk.....the hell am I going to do with a Rohk?

Ampoliros
March 17 2012, 04:18:12 AM
All the while we're sitting here in a hostile wormhole while someone's got to slowboat out in their pod. And again. It's a Rohk.....the hell am I going to do with a Rohk?

alright, i'm not gonna argue the point, mainly because i wasn't trying to argue a point to begin with and there's cooler things to be posting about in this here thread :)

Nice BR, nice fight.

Qui Shon
March 20 2012, 08:42:35 AM
All the while we're sitting here in a hostile wormhole while someone's got to slowboat out in their pod. And again. It's a Rohk.....the hell am I going to do with a Rohk?

Battleship mine ofc.

griznatle
March 21 2012, 03:09:59 AM
I dont usually post, but when i do i gripe.
I mean good god that movie was about as horrid to watch as the megathron pilot who was looting 20k away shooting at a super tackled in lowsek, and it sding in quarter hull.
I mean was your orbit broken?
with that many protus and zealots, i saw about 5 purple squares orbiting the caps at one time in their optimal boomheadshot range.

good god

Yashir Wong
March 21 2012, 11:32:42 PM
I guess some people just don't trust their FC. It's what bugs me the most about that fight. If people had just moved off the damn wormhole when I told them to we would have two capital killmails to back it up. They were scared though and didn't want to move from the safety of their wormhole.

Omen Nihilo
March 22 2012, 09:57:23 PM
So I finally convinced myself to try FCing, and since I had some free time on Friday night it seemed like a perfect time to schedule something. We started chain collapsing our C5 static with a small fleet, but our numbers quickly grew as time went on.
After a few hours we opened up into a site-rich system, with several active pilots at a POS, including some capital ships. After 20 minutes or so, they started escalating a mag site. We waited until they brought in all 5 of their caps, and then we engaged.

The capacitor battle was tough at first since we only had one Bhaalgorn vs. their five capitals and our single triage Archon was struggling to stay up under the dreads combined firepower. He even dipped into structure at one point, but we were able to neut out one of the dreads in time to save him.


We had a few needless losses, but in the end we were able to kill everything except the Rorqual, which self-destructed.

BR:
‪http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12763635‬
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLP1Vktliq0

It's nothing special, and I made a lot of amateur mistakes as FC. For example, we switched wing booster at the last moment, but due to a fleet timer bug we didn't receive boosts until halfway through the battle when I noticed and had to kick the previous guy out of fleet in order to revoke him as booster. This almost cost us our Archon.

Despite these mistakes the fight turned out well in our favor, and lots of fun was had.

W-space best space.

Artjay
March 23 2012, 09:19:38 AM
So I finally convinced myself to try FCing, and since I had some free time on Friday night it seemed like a perfect time to schedule something. We started chain collapsing our C5 static with a small fleet, but our numbers quickly grew as time went on.
After a few hours we opened up into a site-rich system, with several active pilots at a POS, including some capital ships. After 20 minutes or so, they started escalating a mag site. We waited until they brought in all 5 of their caps, and then we engaged.

The capacitor battle was tough at first since we only had one Bhaalgorn vs. their five capitals and our single triage Archon was struggling to stay up under the dreads combined firepower. He even dipped into structure at one point, but we were able to neut out one of the dreads in time to save him.


We had a few needless losses, but in the end we were able to kill everything except the Rorqual, which self-destructed.

BR:
‪http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12763635‬
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLP1Vktliq0

It's nothing special, and I made a lot of amateur mistakes as FC. For example, we switched wing booster at the last moment, but due to a fleet timer bug we didn't receive boosts until halfway through the battle when I noticed and had to kick the previous guy out of fleet in order to revoke him as booster. This almost cost us our Archon.

Despite these mistakes the fight turned out well in our favor, and lots of fun was had.

W-space best space.

If that was literally your first outing as FC your on a distinguished road. Every FC makes mistakes, you just learn to make them less often/not as bad. People who make no attempt to organise anything or never step up to give orders frustrate the hell out of me when they expect their FC's to be at their back and call and perfect. Content is effort mmmk?

Good job on the kills.

Jack Miton
March 26 2012, 11:03:33 PM
I love seeing nullsec farming fleets get wiped out in WHs :)
good job.

Daneel Trevize
March 31 2012, 09:09:50 PM
I was going to comment on the 2 recent small RnK vs AHARM cap fleet losses not having any BRs here, but then this happened http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12905440 :shock:

Ampoliros
April 1 2012, 12:08:43 AM
I was going to comment on the 2 recent small RnK vs AHARM cap fleet losses not having any BRs here, but then this happened http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12905440 :shock:

Nothing really exciting to report from our end about the RnK/AHARM cap losses. They caught the archon after he had closed a wormhole, we had folks landing piecemeal to save him. Was a nice gank by them tbh, it's good to be kept on your toes :)

As for the norcorp fight, it does indeed look awesome and i eagerly await BRs and fraps 8-)

Sandslinger
April 2 2012, 11:32:12 AM
I was going to comment on the 2 recent small RnK vs AHARM cap fleet losses not having any BRs here, but then this happened http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12905440 :shock:

Nothing really exciting to report from our end about the RnK/AHARM cap losses. They caught the archon after he had closed a wormhole, we had folks landing piecemeal to save him. Was a nice gank by them tbh, it's good to be kept on your toes :)

As for the norcorp fight, it does indeed look awesome and i eagerly await BRs and fraps 8-)

Fight was indeed awesome it's been fantastic winding up all our people that slept in and missed it.

A little birdie told me that I can win a carrier if EvE news posted it so it's currently with riverini
FHC can have it if they reject it :D

We have fraps from 3 different perspectives, but fight was nearly an hour long so needs a TON of editing work.

Some day, we will release a video. Just need a week or two when theres nothing to shoot at :D


NB : Norcorp is allied in No Holes Barred with our old brosefs Exceed now. everyone still just says Norcorp and Exceed misses all the glory, and occasional shame :P

Sandslinger
April 6 2012, 11:13:20 AM
Ok as it appears riverini is fairly useless at doing what he says he will or answering communications FHC is getting it.


The following story started a month ago

While looking around our connecting holes we found some neighbors’ that seemed active on their pos and so we placed a gang on the hole hoping for a fight.

After a while just when we were about to give up a single Talos landed in our bubble, he probably wanted to snipe our gang but not realizing about bubbles drag effects he found himself caught.

Upon realizing he was the CEO of a small German alliance [Infernal Coalition] we offered our usual ransom terms ‘sing us your anthem or die’. We have struggled for a long time to add the German anthem to our collection so we were extremely hopeful this would be the time. Alas he declined and thus found himself back in his clone bay.

http://killboard.nor-corp.org/index.php ... etail/678/

Just under 2 months later on a Friday night I receive a conversation from the same character. He is distraught a combined force of several alliances, most notably Ash alliance and Polish Mining Syndicate has reinforced their POS with a 60 man T3/CMD/BS fleet with 3 dreads and 3 Carriers in support. They are outnumbered 6/1 and although defiant also realize they can do nothing to fend off the attackers.

They ask if we [No Holes Barred] can help, and although it is not our usual thing to do mercenary work, but Infernal Coaliton still had something we really wanted, so we agree to help them and they agreed on the price even though we had to repeat it a few times before they would believe it.

They informed us the POS would exit reinforced on Sunday just after downtime, so being busy on the Friday night we decide that we will start chain collapsing our static the next day (Saturday) just after DT. And we tell the Germans they will have to add their Capitals to the fight if they want our help and they readily agree to put every man they can on deck.

The next day we get a fleet assembled, and start chain collapsing.. Our fleet is around 20 people (3 Moros/6 Guardians + support) adding the Germans onto that we would stand a good chance versus the 35 pilots that were currently reported active from the Attacking force.

We cycled for an hour or so without any luck. People were getting bored and the scout started engaging in all kinds of tomfoolery such as warp disrupting the Dreadnoughts. Hole cycling is a game of chance there are a roughly 120 C6 holes. It takes 3-5 minutes to cycle one hole. Yet sometimes you can be cycling for a full day and not get the hole you want.

I thought to myself we need to petition the WH gods for help. I half jokingly asked in alliance if someone could think of a suitable offer. And one pilot Mirrodin offered the contents of his cargo bay which was lined with Exotic Dancers.
Exotic Dancers have a special place in our hearts so I reasoned this would be a fitting offer to the gods.
Thus he jetted them, and promptly vaporized them with his Moros, at the same time our scout jumped in to the new static.

“HOLE FOUND“ rang across teamspeak, “HardiHarHar, April Fools is tomorrow” was the reply. This scout had tomfooleried once to many this day, and no one was prepared to take him seriously.
“IT BLOODY WELL IS” he shouted “IT IS IT IS IT IS”
Just then our IGB probing application updated showing the the scout was indeed in the target system…. Absolutely stunned I called out for the entire fleet to haul bacon and get on over to the hole, while silently thanking the gods for their favour. (this really did happen btw)

Our Devoter jumped in and bubbled the hole, and thus phase 1 of our plan could commence. I asked the Germans who following instruction were currently sitting in their rape caged pos with their 1 moros and Thanathos skimming the inner edge of their POS bubble to slide out of the bubble and start popping the bubbles surrounding the pos.

Before too long the hostiles had probed our connection down and warped a onyx to it. Two of our T3’s jumped in to help the Devoter kill their onyx but he just managed to get away.

This was tense moments the hostiles outnumbered us by 1/3 at this point with 37 versus our total of 27. And Infernal Coalition as working partners were a unknown quantity for us as we have never co-operated with them before. If we could remove the enemy dreadnoughts from the field as quickly as possible, keeping our own we would be able to alpha past their Pantheon carrier setup and win the day even if their remaining fleet should enter the fray.

But should the hostiles decide to call up their entire 60 man fleet before doing anything we would really struggle. Then just as it seemed this was exactly what was going to happen, their entire fleet warped off their POS and landed directly on top of the defenders Dread. They had decided to ignore our presence and the fight was on. Everyone jumped in. warpin was given to Friendly dread and fleet was on its way.

At this point we encountered two major setbacks. The Dread that was the warp in was so close to the bubble that our 3 Moros ended up on the wrong side of the POS instead.

Also due to a misunderstanding the friendly dread had against our desire entered siege once it left bubble. Our 6 guardians could not rep it back up and it promptly died before it’s siege cycle ended.

Our dreads had to rewarp into the fight using a bounce point. While our guardians worked as quickly as possible to stabilize reps. Ecm drones swarmed the field, promptly dispatched by a multitude of smartbombs. People were dipping into deep armor and even hull but reps were holding although barely so.

Our dread bounced back into the fight directly on top of enemy dreads and got to work. Before too long the first enemy dread was gone. The enemy had made a major mistake.

The target system was a C6 Cataclysmic. This means -50% for local rep but +100% for remote rep & cap regen/amount. Yet the enemies capitals were all active tanked with cap rechargers in mids.
Ours were buffer tanked refitting between DPS/Buffer using the single carrier on field as needed. They could not down our Dread before it left siege and our 6 Guardians (with the rep power of 12) repped it back up.
In fact judging by their fits it would seem they had completely overlooked the bonuses of the system they were invading.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12905446

It did not take too long before their 3 dreads were removed from the field and they were left with 3 pantheon carriers and 29 man support fleet. The odds had been firmly evened out.

Next thing we made our third booboo our logi anchors not being fully trained in their new anchor role ran directly into the enemy fleet dragging our guardians with them. And at this point we found out the 5 man Rokh complement of the enemy fleet was in fact fully neut fitted poor mans Bhaalgorn’s. With every guardian being neuted down in quick succession things were looking grim for a while. Two of of our T3's died at this point. Target calling was called to bring down the Rokh’s by means of alpha.

The alpha failed their buffer was too large. But with some quick target switching we managed to first confuse their carriers into repping the wrong Rokh and then to simply push past their reps by overheating the entire fleet’s guns. It was tense moments shield fitted their ships would lose 100% of shield and 10% armor per shot get shield repped back up and repeat.

Once 3 of the rokhs was gone our guardians were safe and we could focus on their carriers. At this point the enemy focused their entire damage output on our Devoters and one by one they died before we could rep them back up again.

2 of their 3 Carriers still died but one managed to escape. The battle raged on, and as we had no hictors left. Their Pods would escape and their pilots were rejoining the battle with basilisks. It was to no avail however one by one their Tengu support vanished in puffs of smoke. They were kiting and the battle had moved 150km. We had to bounce our dreads to get them back into dps range.
And slowly but surely the enemy was whittled down and regardless of their continued will to fight they realized the battle was lost to them and the remainders fled the field.

GF’s and a comment about them also having friends in German directed at Infernal Coalition was made, thus we figured there would be a round two the following day when the POS left reinforced. We got too looting and 1 orca and a Rorqual later and the evenings job was completed.

We spent the following night reinforcing our numbers from home system, due to the awkward time of the fight the majority of had in fact missed it too the merriment and utter gloating of the ones who got up in time or stayed up late enough. We even had a few friends join us and we boosted our numbers up to 45.

However the next day. The leader of the hostile operation Trip Phaze had sent me a mail accepting my previous day’s terms of surrender. They would leave the system and promised to not invade Infernal Coalition again and would unanchor their small and medium POS leaving it behind. A fair move on their part their Capital backbone was gone and they didn’t want to keep 4 alliances fleets behind waiting for them to be brought back in.

And then finally Infernal Coalition graced our teamspeak with payment for our services. And as two of their members turned out to be Austrian they even threw in a bonus 8-).

A fine weekends work indeed.
Thanks to Ash Alliance and Exiled Ones for bringing it.

Final Eve-Kill posting http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12905440

Omen Nihilo
April 6 2012, 12:07:45 PM
Sounds like a great fight! And nice BR!


riverini seems to be just posting crap these days: http://www.evenews24.com/2012/03/30/black-legion-blapping-wormhole-capitals/

Ampoliros
April 6 2012, 03:32:29 PM
awesome BR and awesome fight. :D

two step
April 6 2012, 03:49:50 PM
Yeah, very cool BR!

Artjay
April 6 2012, 04:20:17 PM
Thanks for a good read :)

Cue1*
April 6 2012, 04:30:58 PM
Thanks to Ash Alliance and Exiled Ones for bringing it.

That explains it. These guys connected to us and we had a standoff for about an hour. When we threw down a triage carrier they up and left despite using dreads and a bhaal to collapse their hole.

Daneel Trevize
April 7 2012, 12:22:01 AM
TMA shield carriers + support fleets in pulsars (http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12960699)

More accurate mail? (http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12064)

Cue1*
April 7 2012, 12:48:21 AM
TMA shield carriers + support fleets in pulsars (http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12960699)

More accurate mail? (http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12064)

Comments suggest it's a bugged mail. This I think is the right one (http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12064).

Ampoliros
April 7 2012, 01:24:02 AM
TMA shield carriers + support fleets in pulsars (http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12960699)

More accurate mail? (http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12064)

the mail on our board is accurate, the eve-kill one is missing his invulns for some stupid reason v0v

I only caught the end bit on comms, so i don't know the story too well. We may have a BR/blogpost up in a couple days; suffice it to say, we derped a little bit. :lol:

Hatepeace Lovewar
April 8 2012, 08:26:30 PM
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13000620

oh dear

any one able to fill us in on what happened?

XenosisReaper
April 8 2012, 08:41:10 PM
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13000620

oh dear

any one able to fill us in on what happened?

that looks like a pretty close fight tbh, would have loved to be part of it

Qui Shon
April 8 2012, 09:07:27 PM
Hmm. Been away for a year or more and reading this, seems C5-C6 W-space has become the home of megablobs (by comparison to how it was.)

And everyone is cheering it on, as if the bigger the fights the better....

Now sure I can understand people take notice and ooh and aah at exceptionally large engagements, but am I the only one left who values small gang the highest anymore?
Small meaning 10 per side or less.

Ampoliros
April 9 2012, 12:20:07 AM
Hmm. Been away for a year or more and reading this, seems C5-C6 W-space has become the home of megablobs (by comparison to how it was.)

And everyone is cheering it on, as if the bigger the fights the better....

Now sure I can understand people take notice and ooh and aah at exceptionally large engagements, but am I the only one left who values small gang the highest anymore?
Small meaning 10 per side or less.

The big fights in w-space have been this scale for longer than a year tbh, the only thing that's really increased is the number of capitals and how often those caps are dying. v0v

looks like an interesting fight though, would love to read a BR/vid :)

Casparas
April 9 2012, 12:25:46 AM
Hmm. Been away for a year or more and reading this, seems C5-C6 W-space has become the home of megablobs (by comparison to how it was.)

And everyone is cheering it on, as if the bigger the fights the better....

Now sure I can understand people take notice and ooh and aah at exceptionally large engagements, but am I the only one left who values small gang the highest anymore?
Small meaning 10 per side or less.

The big fights in w-space have been this scale for longer than a year tbh, the only thing that's really increased is the number of capitals and how often those caps are dying. v0v

looks like an interesting fight though, would love to read a BR/vid :)

BR and video will be coming soon. Operation is still in the process.

Chitsa Jason
Exhale Diplo

Qui Shon
April 9 2012, 03:56:02 PM
The big fights in w-space have been this scale for longer than a year tbh, the only thing that's really increased is the number of capitals and how often those caps are dying. v0v

looks like an interesting fight though, would love to read a BR/vid :)

I'm going to take that as a "yes" from you.

Anyway, good br from Sandslinger. Gotta love those ransoms :lol:

Ampoliros
April 9 2012, 05:01:28 PM
The big fights in w-space have been this scale for longer than a year tbh, the only thing that's really increased is the number of capitals and how often those caps are dying. v0v

looks like an interesting fight though, would love to read a BR/vid :)

I'm going to take that as a "yes" from you.

I would say that i prefer a good honest w-space scrap no matter what the size of the participant(s) fleets are; but whatever, really. ;)

Smuggo
April 9 2012, 05:55:38 PM
Hmm. Been away for a year or more and reading this, seems C5-C6 W-space has become the home of megablobs (by comparison to how it was.)

And everyone is cheering it on, as if the bigger the fights the better....

Now sure I can understand people take notice and ooh and aah at exceptionally large engagements, but am I the only one left who values small gang the highest anymore?
Small meaning 10 per side or less.

It's all about C1-4. The big C5/6 alliances are much the same as their 0.0 counterparts in how they operate.

Zigg Omelo
April 9 2012, 11:37:54 PM
I for one, welcome our AAA overlords :derper:

Cue1*
April 10 2012, 12:01:10 AM
Hmm. Been away for a year or more and reading this, seems C5-C6 W-space has become the home of megablobs (by comparison to how it was.)

And everyone is cheering it on, as if the bigger the fights the better....

Now sure I can understand people take notice and ooh and aah at exceptionally large engagements, but am I the only one left who values small gang the highest anymore?
Small meaning 10 per side or less.

It's all about C1-4. The big C5/6 alliances are much the same as their 0.0 counterparts in how they operate.

So because a corp/alliance uses caps, they're blobs?

Daneel Trevize
April 10 2012, 12:02:34 AM
I for one, welcome our AAA overlords :derper:Heard that one earlier. From what I know of AAA and 'the NATO coalition', this joke just ain't funny, it's going nowhere.

Ampoliros
April 10 2012, 12:32:51 AM
I for one, welcome our AAA overlords :derper:

:obama:

edit: link for those who haven't seen it (http://www.reddit.com/r/evedreddit/comments/rzu2n/a_massive_attack_against_all_wormholes_is_going/)

Grarr Dexx
April 10 2012, 01:04:50 AM
Don't turn this into another unmanageable heap of shit, because I won't go light on my infractions.

Jack Miton
April 10 2012, 02:06:04 AM
I for one, welcome our AAA overlords :derper:

:obama:

edit: link for those who haven't seen it (http://www.reddit.com/r/evedreddit/comments/rzu2n/a_massive_attack_against_all_wormholes_is_going/)

LOL, i missed that one till now but it made my day, thanks :P
Only thing ive ever seen AAA do in WHs is get their farming fleets wiped out.

as for that Exhale. BR, i may as well have given a heads up it was gonna go down since i was away for the entire weekend....
also looking forward to the official writeup and vid.

Casparas
April 11 2012, 12:11:56 AM
http://www.evenews24.com/2012/04/11/worm-hole-stories-operation-nekkar/ BR posted about cap slugfest in wspace

AmaNutin
April 11 2012, 12:15:38 AM
I want to see how this "campaign" plays out. Nothing like losing a connection between W-space systems and having to have both scan their way to some K-space paths to reconnect.

edit: look forward to armor fleets in pulsar etc. etc on KMs :popcorn:

Ampoliros
April 11 2012, 03:34:00 AM
After have repeatedly open a connection from our home system to Green-Core‘s home system and have been rejected of any engagements at any kind, even when they outnumbered us by far we informed them in local that people like that will eventually get a free pos removal service if they keep on avoiding to take part in any activities in wormhole space other than harvesting the resources of it.

And that promise we kept.

i like you guys :D

pro swiping of the homeworld 2 sfx in the vid as well

Apolyon
April 12 2012, 11:30:35 PM
http://killboard.nor-corp.org/index.php/kill_related/1468/ norcorp vs starbridge

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13042933 AAA got raped

last but not least http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13044363 lead farmers, red circle and future corp team up to blobl ducks

so much stuff going on in one day

LordsServant
April 13 2012, 08:07:18 PM
Very serious shit about to go down between all major WH Groups (Narwhals, Aharm, Exhale, etc etc) and AAA. The clansmen are coming from the hills to destroy the imperialist invaders! =D

Will keep update with status of things and let's see if AAA fights or takes the cowards way out(self D).

Daneel Trevize
April 13 2012, 08:28:32 PM
Lords, are you posting on a Friday telling us about Monday's news that's already been ridiculed?
So far today in w-space AAA seem to have managed... this (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13051898) :roll:
Seems to be it for them since their cap fleet welping as posted above you. Hardly smacks of hole-control.

two step
April 13 2012, 09:01:40 PM
Lords, are you posting on a Friday telling us about Monday's news that's already been ridiculed?
So far today in w-space AAA seem to have managed... this (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13051898) :roll:
Seems to be it for them since their cap fleet welping as posted above you. Hardly smacks of hole-control.

AAA has a POS coming out of RF tonight...

Daneel Trevize
April 13 2012, 09:45:32 PM
Still, with seemingly no contact all day between any named parties, doesn't sound serious/pivotal. A huge nullsec alliance should have the advantages of numbers and timezone coverage, there should be plenty of things like scanner ship lossmails if they were trying to control routes to bring their strengths to bear. No?
Bring loads of alts with attacking forces and then throw 10 covops through each hole - some will make it and then existing routes are going to be compromised. Ready fleets in empire will be moving down the line so risky defensive collapsing is forced.
Defenders probing from a home system and looking into new sigs should result in someone getting their head blown off by a chain-collapsing force and producing some evidence of the grand offensive.

I'm sure an alliance could make a decent stab at this, after all they can far more readily cross new eden with their titans, non-super capital ships are relatively cheap, and multiple fleets could be chain-collapsing at once. I just would expect more proof if it was on-going. Unless I'm missing some ways in which you'd conceal/enact this?

Omen Nihilo
April 14 2012, 04:55:38 AM
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13058209

More to come.

Qui Shon
April 14 2012, 10:22:01 AM
165 people even just online at once in a single wormhole, never mind all from one side.....I think I'm going to be sick.


WTB time machine to 2009.

olusegun obasanjo
April 14 2012, 10:41:55 AM
statics are the problem to be honest, combined with the relative scarcity of c6s has allowed power to coalesce around large numbers of small groups because their power can be predictably projected by rolling holes. what made wormholes so great in 2009 was no one really thought this process out, or had static mapper.

my idiot and not well thought out idea for new types of wormhole space

* infrequent and unpredictable connections to normal wormhole space (cut down on 16 towers in a c6->c6)
* statics no longer exist, connections are unpredictable and you can get caught "deadended" and trapped in system for a time but happens infrequently, usually as a result of attempting to roll a hole(risk vs reward of rolling a hole) this is not to say the overall the hole prevalence will be less frequent, but that you will not always have a static respawn when you close it
* slight skill loss upon podding in this space
* longer lasting holes( 48- 72 hrs or even longer), but with less mass. only certain kinds let in capitals
* anoms/sigs are not entirely class restricted (a decent variation of difficulties of sites in each system)
* active mining of moon goo, or something similarly valuable, maybe a small amount of ice mining

LordsServant
April 14 2012, 11:15:45 AM
statics are the problem to be honest, combined with the relative scarcity of c6s has allowed power to coalesce around large numbers of small groups because their power can be predictably projected by rolling holes. what made wormholes so great in 2009 was no one really thought this process out, or had static mapper.

my idiot and not well thought out idea for new types of wormhole space

* infrequent and unpredictable connections to normal wormhole space (cut down on 16 towers in a c6->c6)
* statics no longer exist, connections are unpredictable and you can get caught "deadended" and trapped in system for a time but happens infrequently, usually as a result of attempting to roll a hole(risk vs reward of rolling a hole) this is not to say the overall the hole prevalence will be less frequent, but that you will not always have a static respawn when you close it
* slight skill loss upon podding in this space
* longer lasting holes( 48- 72 hrs or even longer), but with less mass. only certain kinds let in capitals
* anoms/sigs are not entirely class restricted (a decent variation of difficulties of sites in each system)
* active mining of moon goo, or something similarly valuable, maybe a small amount of ice mining

Get Out.

The reason there were so many people is because literally all the decent WH groups banded together to show AAA that they need to fuck off with their imperialist tendencies in WH space.

WH space is literally almost a recreation of the whole "providence fight club" thing, except we're actually good, and due to the nature of WH space it's extremely hard to do a standard invasion(like AAA is learning).

I missed last night as my new computer arrived fucked AGAIN. Sending it back to be fixed *again*. (Fucking UPS retards, wish I could send it thru Fedex)

Qui Shon
April 14 2012, 11:43:14 AM
The reason there were so many people

The reason is irrelevant.


EDIT: Which is to say, even if I agree with the reason, it's still a strong indicator of the wormhole space I loved being gone. For good most likely, unless CCP make major changes.

Lorkin Desal
April 14 2012, 11:50:13 AM
You man to say AAA actually tried to enact the "conqour all wormholes plan"? Oh My.

Sandslinger
April 14 2012, 12:28:17 PM
The reason there were so many people

The reason is irrelevant.


EDIT: Which is to say, even if I agree with the reason, it's still a strong indicator of the wormhole space I loved being gone. For good most likely, unless CCP make major changes.


Sorry but I think your over-dramatizing this.

The only difference between now and then is that. Back then if Triple AAA had decided to come in and "ruin" wormholes they could have actually done it.

Now there are far too many entities that love WH and are willing to overlook their differences to ensure 0,0 stay the F out.


You spoke about there being bigh fights ruining wormholes as though the big fights somehow exlude all the small fights that happen all the time. (Very few people make battlereports about 5 on 5 fights, they tend to be rather short)

As for the ideas posted up there sorry but they are terribad. No rolling means that when your static are farmers who don't want to fight you simply don't get a fight and you would be left jacking off for the night. woohoo great game mechanics.

When everyone in wh starts rolling it becomes a cat and mouse game of who can get the drop on everyone else first. Can see how well this works by for example RNK's C5-C6 connection. they frequently get the drop on C6 alliances who have no way of getting the drop on them first. Just another piece of the tapestry.

Take that away and your left with a lot of entities being piss bored because their neighbours are just there to farm and theres nothing they can do to stop it.

Small SP loss for each death means you completely remove the new player base from wormholes as SP loss hurts them a lot more then it does the 100mil sp characters.

I hope you didn't spend a lot of time coming up with those ideas :roll:

It should be quite telling that it is by no means the largest alliances which has the most respect pvp wise.

Omen Nihilo
April 14 2012, 12:54:04 PM
You spoke about there being bigh fights ruining wormholes as though the big fights somehow exlude all the small fights that happen all the time. (Very few people make battlereports about 5 on 5 fights, they tend to be rather short)
This.^

Also, WTB this great utopia in 2009. :roll:

Here's what I found:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=5126786
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=5528746
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=5070024

Seems eerily similar to a lot of the fights I get in 2012.

Qui Shon
April 14 2012, 01:12:22 PM
Sorry but I think your over-dramatizing this.

The only difference between now and then is that. Back then if Triple AAA had decided to come in and "ruin" wormholes they could have actually done it.

Now there are far too many entities that love WH and are willing to overlook their differences to ensure 0,0 stay the F out.


You spoke about there being bigh fights ruining wormholes as though the big fights somehow exlude all the small fights that happen all the time. (Very few people make battlereports about 5 on 5 fights, they tend to be rather short)


They could no more have done it then, then they can now.
The level of knowledge and organization required for such undertakings, just wasn't there in 2009, in any larger entity.

And yes, the mere existence of big groups and coalitions of groups with high enough levels of organization to be efficient in large numbers despite the hurdles wormholes present, do mean that's there's a much greater chance of 5v5 to escalate to 10v20 in no time at all, or 10v50. Or 165 vs 0.

Qui Shon
April 14 2012, 01:17:17 PM
This.^

Also, WTB this great utopia in 2009. :roll:

Here's what I found:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=5126786
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=5528746
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=5070024

Seems eerily similar to a lot of the fights I get in 2012.


That's 19, 14 and 14 ships for the larger side, respectively.

Now try to find one with 100+
I know of one possibly two 2010 which might qualify, and no 2009. That's not to say they don't exist, but if they do, show me.

Omen Nihilo
April 14 2012, 01:25:13 PM
Do I really need to post a bunch of BRs from 2012 that are smaller than that?

Qui Shon
April 14 2012, 01:28:21 PM
Do I really need to post a bunch of BRs from 2012 that are smaller than that?

No, you need to post some huge ones from 2009. My last post seems to have been cut short.

I never said small engagements don't exist anymore, of course they do and always will. But the likelihood of escalation into larger numbers should be far higher now.

Omen Nihilo
April 14 2012, 01:35:18 PM
I think I get your point.

But keep in mind getting 165 people from 17 Alliances (37 Corps) together in one wh is not likely to happen again, at least any time soon. The numbers weren't even necessary. It was simply a show of force to tell -A- to "get off my lawn".

Qui Shon
April 14 2012, 02:00:20 PM
Yes I understand this, and it's not my intention to piss on the parade, on the achievement of this level of organization, though it seems that is what I did.


But I reserve the right to express my personal disgust at any and *all* large numbers, and the change in gameplay they signify, at least to me. You know, I once came back from a break and saw the normal 5-15 in corp chat had become 40-50, almost puked a bit. I let them know it too, always making friends as I am :p
Then again, I will have to change and adapt to the environment too.

Grarr edit: just stick to concurrent bullshitting

Sandslinger
April 14 2012, 04:38:36 PM
Triple AAA? So like AAAAAAAAA? Or A�?

Yes I'm a noob :oops:

I will agree with you to a point Qui Shon, hell we jumped 6 BS in a C3/C4 a while back with 3 logi and 3 T3 next thing there was 30 people and several carriers on field. and we had purposfully not sent entire fleet to keep it small.

Our entire carebear fleet in home had to jump out of the site to kill them in the end :D.

If there was some way of preventing capital building arrays in the systems I would not be against the idea of a entire class of C1, C2's that had multiple gates that each only allowed 10 cruisers through.

you have to allow for static rolling though otherwise they would be filled up by bot farmers and you could never ever invade them.

Then again human nature is to "blob" up doing something like that could just end with each system having 40 toons and anyone that wanted to attack them never having a chance because they couldn't bring the force to bear. so maybe that solution is retarded too v0v

You just can't manage people into only playing in small bands it goes against our grain (well most of our grains)

At least now it's rare we come across fleets that we simply can not attack due to hole sizes in C5/C6. although taking fights in peoples home system can be risky to say the least and something not a lot of people are willing to do unless they have intell that the enemy force is all outside.


At the very least I will say one thing for wormholes that 0,0 simply doesn't have if we fight anyone in a intermediary system then we know they can't bring more then us. The fights themselves are generally fair where player skill and fleet comps matter more then bring da blob.

smaller entities do retain the possibility of playing with hole mass so they can engage potentially larger entities and then withdraw.

Wrack
April 14 2012, 06:41:58 PM
As a lower-class WH space inhabitant, I am forced to blob by towers, not by any other wormhole mechanic. Because I have to blob, the enemy can't fight me. It's plain dumb.

If you live in a WH and aren't retarded, you have a large dickstar (or dick/deathstar hybrid) POS. In a C4 or below you can't bring dreads, so it takes a fleet of 30+ BS/Logi to engage that sort of POS effectively (even without gunners), and it will take several hours to incap the ECM and several more to reinforce. This means we have to blob to invade people. Because we have to blob, they have no real chance to fight back without batphoning/hiring a bigger blob.

If you couldn't anchor large POSes in C4 and smaller WHs, it wouldn't be so ridiculous. We could bring a gang of 10 and pose a credible but not insurmountable threat. Fights for survival could actually happen. Consensual balanced skirmishes are great fun, but I've actually gotten that sort of fight a grand total of twice in ~2 years of wormholing. Generating fights consists of ganking carebears, baiting by appearing to be carebearing, or invading. And the latter is broken by the presence of large POSes in sub-capital WHs.

Capitals are also not the problem. The majority of capitals that I have seen die in C2-4 wormholes died to a self destruct timer inside the shields of a reinforced POS (or they are just sold/handed over to the invaders). Let people build them if it makes them feel safe. Very few are actually willing to use them.

Wormhole mechanics are generally good. The only change that lower-class WH space needs is banning large towers from C1-4.

E T
April 14 2012, 06:53:10 PM
i love all the griping that is going on because of this.

-A- wants a full constellation to their selves to create a sort of feed back loop with grav/lad sigs in which they can infini mine out system after system and print out the desired amount of ore or gas on demand. 165 folks to stop a group of infidels sounds kind of small when you think about the ramifications of a group like -A- gaining such an ability.

Omen Nihilo
April 14 2012, 08:05:16 PM
They're not the first...

Logistically it's not even that hard. You don't need to take control of the constellation: just have a throwaway alt in each system that activates the sites once a week or so.

The hard part is finding those other systems in the constellation.

EDIT: this is just my understanding of the game mechanics. I don't know if anyone has thoroughly tested it.

E T
April 14 2012, 08:35:14 PM
that is half assing it so to speak.

a miner sig wlil bounce within the same consty from what we have observed. the way most folks haev done this means that there is a 4 day delay between the sig activating in the uninhabited system and it respawning elsewhere. on top of that it will be random if it lands in your system or neighboring system.

however, if you have installations and toons in all of that constellation the sky is the limit. hypothetically, I could mine out a ladar site in system A and watch it reappear in system b on my other toon(s) and mine it again. so, if you do this with all of the systems in one constellation the ammount of resources you can collect is limited to the amount of time you and your cohorts can play. in alot of ways it is better than moongoo because one of those massive blobs of shitty players in supers can't take your income from you.

just to give you an idea. we hardly mine in AHARM and we bring in billions of isk worth of ore each month. i bet a titans worth of ore could be extracted from such a farmed constellation in days if not hours given the organization and the large amount of bear contacts leftover from the -A- citizen days.

Wrack
April 14 2012, 08:44:38 PM
How many hulk-hours of manpower does it take to actually clean up all of the low-end stuff to make a grav site despawn? A very small fraction of what you mine will actually be A/B/C if you fully clean out sites. It is more practical for ladar though, and of course combat sites.

Qui Shon
April 14 2012, 10:12:41 PM
It should be quite telling that it is by no means the largest alliances which has the most respect pvp wise.

Oh, I meant to ask, which have the most respect pvp wise, would you say?

(I've recently returned to Eve, and am not up to date.)





Grarr edit: just stick to concurrent bullshitting

Wut? Perhaps it is your intention to convey, that this thread is for BR's and ooh aah nice one posts only?

Vortex
April 14 2012, 10:31:00 PM
that is half assing it so to speak.

a miner sig wlil bounce within the same consty from what we have observed. the way most folks haev done this means that there is a 4 day delay between the sig activating in the uninhabited system and it respawning elsewhere. on top of that it will be random if it lands in your system or neighboring system.

however, if you have installations and toons in all of that constellation the sky is the limit. hypothetically, I could mine out a ladar site in system A and watch it reappear in system b on my other toon(s) and mine it again. so, if you do this with all of the systems in one constellation the ammount of resources you can collect is limited to the amount of time you and your cohorts can play. in alot of ways it is better than moongoo because one of those massive blobs of shitty players in supers can't take your income from you.

just to give you an idea. we hardly mine in AHARM and we bring in billions of isk worth of ore each month. i bet a titans worth of ore could be extracted from such a farmed constellation in days if not hours given the organization and the large amount of bear contacts leftover from the -A- citizen days.

Has there ever actually been confirmation that sites respawn within the same W-space constellation only? K-Space tends to be by region (or multi-region groups quite possibly), certainly not constellations (or DED site farming would be lul easy). It strikes me as a hell of a lot of work to find all the wormspace systems in the same constellation just to discover that sites respawn within the wormpsace region...

xanral
April 14 2012, 10:42:24 PM
If you couldn't anchor large POSes in C4 and smaller WHs, it wouldn't be so ridiculous. We could bring a gang of 10 and pose a credible but not insurmountable threat. Fights for survival could actually happen. Consensual balanced skirmishes are great fun, but I've actually gotten that sort of fight a grand total of twice in ~2 years of wormholing. Generating fights consists of ganking carebears, baiting by appearing to be carebearing, or invading. And the latter is broken by the presence of large POSes in sub-capital WHs.


I don't think making invasions more attractive is the answer at getting better fights. I don't think the mentality of people playing Eve is such where both sides of an invasion are going to be looking for a good fight regardless of the difficulty/numbers involved due to fear of the dreaded loss mail. Personally I believe custom's offices offer a happy medium. Often they're not defended but I don't think it would be that much higher of a defense attempt on actual POSes. The type that don't cry themselves to sleep at night over a new loss mail are probably also the type that are willing to fight in non-invasion circumstances anyway.

E T
April 15 2012, 12:08:31 AM
that is half assing it so to speak.

a miner sig wlil bounce within the same consty from what we have observed. the way most folks haev done this means that there is a 4 day delay between the sig activating in the uninhabited system and it respawning elsewhere. on top of that it will be random if it lands in your system or neighboring system.

however, if you have installations and toons in all of that constellation the sky is the limit. hypothetically, I could mine out a ladar site in system A and watch it reappear in system b on my other toon(s) and mine it again. so, if you do this with all of the systems in one constellation the ammount of resources you can collect is limited to the amount of time you and your cohorts can play. in alot of ways it is better than moongoo because one of those massive blobs of shitty players in supers can't take your income from you.

just to give you an idea. we hardly mine in AHARM and we bring in billions of isk worth of ore each month. i bet a titans worth of ore could be extracted from such a farmed constellation in days if not hours given the organization and the large amount of bear contacts leftover from the -A- citizen days.

Has there ever actually been confirmation that sites respawn within the same W-space constellation only? K-Space tends to be by region (or multi-region groups quite possibly), certainly not constellations (or DED site farming would be lul easy). It strikes me as a hell of a lot of work to find all the wormspace systems in the same constellation just to discover that sites respawn within the wormpsace region...

i think if i go into too much detail my corpies will not appreciate it so, i'll just leave it at we have made some direct observations of intra-constelation sig spawn over the years. I would assume -A- figured it out in the last few months too if they have been pushing to get a 5/3 constelation. the risk is very mitigated in one of these constellations. intruders who would want to siege the system could not use scouts to scan out cap capable routes asides from dynamics and routes from incoming K162's. 5 space is just so fuckin big too that it's like winning a nice bit of change on scratch off's in terms of odds to roll a hole into them. so, its an ideal place to set up such an operation.

edit: then again, if you increase the target systems by 14, the odds arent so bad.

Vortex
April 15 2012, 12:25:00 AM
that is half assing it so to speak.

a miner sig wlil bounce within the same consty from what we have observed. the way most folks haev done this means that there is a 4 day delay between the sig activating in the uninhabited system and it respawning elsewhere. on top of that it will be random if it lands in your system or neighboring system.

however, if you have installations and toons in all of that constellation the sky is the limit. hypothetically, I could mine out a ladar site in system A and watch it reappear in system b on my other toon(s) and mine it again. so, if you do this with all of the systems in one constellation the ammount of resources you can collect is limited to the amount of time you and your cohorts can play. in alot of ways it is better than moongoo because one of those massive blobs of shitty players in supers can't take your income from you.

just to give you an idea. we hardly mine in AHARM and we bring in billions of isk worth of ore each month. i bet a titans worth of ore could be extracted from such a farmed constellation in days if not hours given the organization and the large amount of bear contacts leftover from the -A- citizen days.

Has there ever actually been confirmation that sites respawn within the same W-space constellation only? K-Space tends to be by region (or multi-region groups quite possibly), certainly not constellations (or DED site farming would be lul easy). It strikes me as a hell of a lot of work to find all the wormspace systems in the same constellation just to discover that sites respawn within the wormpsace region...

i think if i go into too much detail my corpies will not appreciate it so, i'll just leave it at we have made some direct observations of intra-constelation sig spawn over the years. I would assume -A- figured it out in the last few months too if they have been pushing to get a 5/3 constelation. the risk is very mitigated in one of these constellations. intruders who would want to siege the system could not use scouts to scan out cap capable routes asides from dynamics and routes from incoming K162's. 5 space is just so fuckin big too that it's like winning a nice bit of change on scratch off's in terms of odds to roll a hole into them. so, its an ideal place to set up such an operation.

edit: then again, if you increase the target systems by 14, the odds arent so bad.

Ah shame, I'd love to see the data you guys have that led you to that conclusion. Thanks for the explanation as it stands tho.

Ash2k7
April 15 2012, 12:59:54 AM
Ah shame, I'd love to see the data you guys have that led you to that conclusion. Thanks for the explanation as it stands tho.
Back when I was playing and in AHARM (so about 18 months ago), there were far fewer people in corp and we still had scanning alts in basically every c6. ET knows what he's talking about. AHARM wh db was scary and can only have gotten better.


How many hulk-hours of manpower does it take to actually clean up all of the low-end stuff to make a grav site despawn?
MAN-hours? AAA mining? Surely you jest.

If you were running whole mining ops as seriously as people run combat sites, clearing out an entire site won't take any serious amount of time. I know people who 5 boxed combat sites to grind out absurd amounts of isk, so even without botting a mining fleet can be really impressive - say 10 accounts per person, 9 hulks and a rorq (insert appropriate mix, since I've never mined seriously and have neve rhad a char that could sit in a hulk).

Anyways, enough db and mining speculation. I wish there were more actual action, and I know how amazingly exciting clearing out a system full of POSes & mods is. Hope not too many slit wrists across the defending wormholers.

E T
April 15 2012, 03:31:53 AM
howdy Ash, hope your doing well!

i think the mining in wh's is viable because its an easy conduit to empire with the ores. especially compressed. if the bottle neck is not isk but the supply of materials and security then sig bouncing is the best answer.

Vilgan
April 16 2012, 12:34:30 AM
that is half assing it so to speak.

a miner sig wlil bounce within the same consty from what we have observed. the way most folks haev done this means that there is a 4 day delay between the sig activating in the uninhabited system and it respawning elsewhere. on top of that it will be random if it lands in your system or neighboring system.

however, if you have installations and toons in all of that constellation the sky is the limit. hypothetically, I could mine out a ladar site in system A and watch it reappear in system b on my other toon(s) and mine it again. so, if you do this with all of the systems in one constellation the ammount of resources you can collect is limited to the amount of time you and your cohorts can play. in alot of ways it is better than moongoo because one of those massive blobs of shitty players in supers can't take your income from you.

just to give you an idea. we hardly mine in AHARM and we bring in billions of isk worth of ore each month. i bet a titans worth of ore could be extracted from such a farmed constellation in days if not hours given the organization and the large amount of bear contacts leftover from the -A- citizen days.

Has there ever actually been confirmation that sites respawn within the same W-space constellation only? K-Space tends to be by region (or multi-region groups quite possibly), certainly not constellations (or DED site farming would be lul easy). It strikes me as a hell of a lot of work to find all the wormspace systems in the same constellation just to discover that sites respawn within the wormpsace region...

i think if i go into too much detail my corpies will not appreciate it so, i'll just leave it at we have made some direct observations of intra-constelation sig spawn over the years. I would assume -A- figured it out in the last few months too if they have been pushing to get a 5/3 constelation. the risk is very mitigated in one of these constellations. intruders who would want to siege the system could not use scouts to scan out cap capable routes asides from dynamics and routes from incoming K162's. 5 space is just so fuckin big too that it's like winning a nice bit of change on scratch off's in terms of odds to roll a hole into them. so, its an ideal place to set up such an operation.

edit: then again, if you increase the target systems by 14, the odds arent so bad.

Ah shame, I'd love to see the data you guys have that led you to that conclusion. Thanks for the explanation as it stands tho.

Most money sites are regionwide, which is a big part of why c6s generate so much more income than c5s (higher activity => more sites on average showing up that you can farm). There might or might not be some exceptions to the "region wide" thing.

c5->c3 makes sense for a disparate group of alts who want to farm isk, have an easy route to empire, and be very hard to invade. I can't imagine that taking over all the c5->c3 sites is a long term goal for the alliance as a whole because it would be boring as fuck long term. I would assume it is a short term goal, with visions of alts making mountains of isk with which to build titans. There is at least 1 group in wspace who does something like this (massive farming for titans), but they never bothered focusing it into a single constellation.

From what I've seen, the priorities/interests of the group tend to be met by different wormhole types and they rapidly gravitate to the appropriate one:

1) High risk/high reward, don't mind getting a nasty surprise on the kb occasionally = c6
1b) Same as 1, but with high interest in pvp = c6 w/ c6 static
2) Significantly lower risk, medium reward = c5 w/ c5 static
2a) Prefer the low risk, but can occasionally get ganks = c5 w/ c6 static
3) Leave me alone I want to farm on my alts or w/ my 2-3 irl buddies = c5 w/ c1/2/3/4 static

In most cases, where people don't match with this list... eventually they move to a wormhole type that is more in fitting with their style and outlook on Eve.

Jack Miton
April 16 2012, 03:01:47 AM
165 people even just online at once in a single wormhole, never mind all from one side.....I think I'm going to be sick.


WTB time machine to 2009.

this was an explicit show of force, not an every day occurrence.
the vast majority of fights in WHs are still much much smaller.

Antilogic
April 16 2012, 06:14:41 AM
165 people even just online at once in a single wormhole, never mind all from one side.....I think I'm going to be sick.


WTB time machine to 2009.

this was an explicit show of force, not an every day occurrence.
the vast majority of fights in WHs are still much much smaller.

True. Still depressing though :(

Sandslinger
April 16 2012, 06:47:43 AM
165 people even just online at once in a single wormhole, never mind all from one side.....I think I'm going to be sick.


WTB time machine to 2009.

this was an explicit show of force, not an every day occurrence.
the vast majority of fights in WHs are still much much smaller.

True. Still depressing though :(


You might as well commit suicide right now then, because the EU number was
220 People.
The 165 was early US tz once the initial wave had started to go to sleep so combined there was well over 300 people in the actual hole more people were trickling in for the entire Saturday.(discounting -A- presence I saw at least 20 ships from them suiciding at pos).

Local looked like something out of goonspace :cry:

Apolyon
April 16 2012, 07:34:52 AM
short BR on AQUILA's 2nd serious armor fleet fight while I suck gas

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13082342

they open into us while they were jewing, we didn't understand what happened but we still try to jump on their bearing fleet, they finished by the time we form up and reshipped into pvp boats.

fight broke out on their static

gf was exchanged, respect from all AQUILA members to Team Pizza for bringing a fight and not self destructing

Smuggo
April 16 2012, 11:50:47 AM
short BR on AQUILA's 2nd serious armor fleet fight while sucking gas

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13082342

they open into us while they were jewing, we didn't understand what happened but we still try to jump on their bearing fleet, they finished by the time we form up and reshipped into pvp boats.

fight broke out on their static

gf was exchanged, respect from all AQUILA members for bringing a fight and not self destructing

Heh, we've had a prober in their hole for a long time hoping for fights after an initial skirmish with them some months ago.

The other day their E545 linked to Stain where had a route only a few jumps away so went to pay them a visit. After their falcon got nuked, along with a 500m pod, they were kinda cautious. We hung about for a bit, but then they had two basis appear along with a bunch of BCs/BS and since there were only three of us we decided to back off and fight the locals. When a 4th corpmated logged in we went back but they didn't seem to want to engage anymore :(

Spujax
April 16 2012, 04:16:59 PM
short BR on AQUILA's 2nd serious armor fleet fight while sucking gas

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13082342

they open into us while they were jewing, we didn't understand what happened but we still try to jump on their bearing fleet, they finished by the time we form up and reshipped into pvp boats.

fight broke out on their static

gf was exchanged, respect from all AQUILA members for bringing a fight and not self destructing


Yeah not our finest moment, but we had a good time. We made some major mistakes, but honestly just got flat out beat. Pretty sure that was the first cap fight a lot of members have been in, so hopefully we can bring a better quality fight next time.

Vilgan
April 17 2012, 12:45:37 AM
short BR on AQUILA's 2nd serious armor fleet fight while sucking gas

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13082342

they open into us while they were jewing, we didn't understand what happened but we still try to jump on their bearing fleet, they finished by the time we form up and reshipped into pvp boats.

fight broke out on their static

gf was exchanged, respect from all AQUILA members for bringing a fight and not self destructing


Yeah not our finest moment, but we had a good time. We made some major mistakes, but honestly just got flat out beat. Pretty sure that was the first cap fight a lot of members have been in, so hopefully we can bring a better quality fight next time.

Props for trying. Only way that loss matters for you long term is if you let it get you down and let it make you timid in the future.

Rengas
April 17 2012, 01:44:26 AM
Tremendous tip of the hat to the Team Pizza capital pilots for their decision not to SD despite being the only ships left on field.

Looking forward to our next encounter ;)

E T
April 17 2012, 05:56:47 AM
Grarr Dexx, Trans-Solar Works 2011.01.30 22:12 to 2011.03.30 22:50

your very biased censorship makes sense now

grarr edit: Let me make it perfectly fucking clear here, I'm not going to tolerate this shit, if it is continued (by anyone, I don't care what color or flag you fly) I am going to go out of my way to make your posting experience on this board one fucking hell you wish you'd never gotten into. What the fuck does a corporation I spent time in a year and one quarter ago (who haven't been affiliated with Guillotine Therapy or Rooks & Kings for FAR longer, FYI) matter to what shitposts I want to delete? 'u scurrred?' is not content, it's terrible posting aimed at aggravating people and it's not going to stand. FROM ANYONE. If you want to taunt people or be smug as shit about something, do it through a biased battle report that brings content to this forum.

Spujax
April 17 2012, 05:37:07 PM
short BR on AQUILA's 2nd serious armor fleet fight while sucking gas

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13082342

they open into us while they were jewing, we didn't understand what happened but we still try to jump on their bearing fleet, they finished by the time we form up and reshipped into pvp boats.

fight broke out on their static

gf was exchanged, respect from all AQUILA members for bringing a fight and not self destructing


Yeah not our finest moment, but we had a good time. We made some major mistakes, but honestly just got flat out beat. Pretty sure that was the first cap fight a lot of members have been in, so hopefully we can bring a better quality fight next time.

Props for trying. Only way that loss matters for you long term is if you let it get you down and let it make you timid in the future.

No this has really just jump started everyone's desire to get better. Last couple days all we have been doing is figuring out what we did wrong and how to win that fight next time. If anything, this has been a really good thing for us, giving us some obvious areas to work on.

Apolyon
April 21 2012, 03:10:53 AM
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13128377

wh corp don't work well with supers

Tyr
April 21 2012, 02:46:54 PM
in other news, let's see how -A- is doing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wygb4PF84I&hd=1


KM: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13131777

The video starts as soon as we bumped the thanny out. He and his friend were playing pos shield games, and sooner or later they were bound to mess up.
Will update as soon as stuff happens.


*edit* This morning they guys & girls managed to catch another one: Rev kill (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13141049)
Seems like he suicided the rev to the fleet so he could get a bubble down and save another cap.

**edit 2** POS Takedown (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13143114)

Ampoliros
April 22 2012, 12:19:28 PM
This Sunday appears to be a good day for w-space, and it's not even primetime ;)

the above rev kill (n1)

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13139990 widot capital losses, 6 archons + moros

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13142589 our own humblestest of contributions, 5 caps + 3 SDs

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13142776 aquila killing a couple carriers (1 SD, sounds like)

plus a few more single capital ganks, including a holeclosing moros fit from wi. and some others

Daneel Trevize
April 22 2012, 01:16:54 PM
No WI. cap ship seems to be less than 4bil, with 8.5 and 12bil carriers in there. Yet they die to some T2 shield fitted Bhaals. Then I see those carrier mids & rigs. And they all had 1 local rep but no triage.

two step
April 22 2012, 09:39:27 PM
I knew those WI. names seemed familiar... http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=4482 and the full set: http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=4482. I'm pretty sure we had a BR of that up on SHC as well, but it was written up on EN24 as well http://www.evenews24.com/2010/12/18/widot-welps-capitals-in-wormhole/

Omen Nihilo
April 24 2012, 12:04:52 AM
Long winded BR incoming. I would've posted it earlier, but everyone has been a bit busy kicking -A- out of w-space.

I had a go at FCing again, and the result just happened to be the best fight in EVE I've ever had.

I logged on to hear that we were engaging a large fleet in our static. I immediately came in and started shooting alongside my corp mates, but their numbers were steadily growing. They had about 20 people, with 3 Logi and a crapton of ECM. We managed to pop a Falcon at the start of the battle, but it soon became apparent that their reps were holding, and ours were failing.

We jumped back into our home, and while we waited out our timers, we got a 3rd Guardian and started fitting remote ECCM on some of our AHACs. They seemed to think the battle was over, but we weren't just gonna let them disengage so easily. I stepped up as FC and ordered our fleet to jump in as soon as we could.

Our numbers were quite even, 20 vs 20; however, they now had 2 Archons on grid, and we had no neuts. We tried to alpha through some of their squishier ships, but since the system was a Cataclysmic we weren't making any headway.

We decided to have one of our Legion pilots to jump home and bring back a Bhaalgorn. He did so, but we realized that more was needed than just the Bhaalgorn. Their DPS and ECM were putting a heavy toll on our Logi, and the Bhaalgorn pilot would be on timer so he wouldn't be able to jump back if our Logi reps couldn't keep up. We had an Archon on standby, but the hole would collapse if we brought it through.

We decided to bring our Archon in anyways. The hole collapsed behind us and we set to work on neuting out one of their Archons. They brought in their own Bhaalgorn, but he was immediately silenced by our ECM Tengus. It seemed like a stalemate… but then their 2nd Archon pilot warped out…. and came back in a Rev.

Crap.

They immediately focused all DPS on our Archon. There were a few tense moments, but with our Damnation boosts he was able to withstand their DPS.

It seemed like ages later, but finally our Bhaalgorn pilot capped out their Archon. He had come out of triage at this point and was receiving reps from their Logi, so we primaried their Logi. 2 of them popped quickly one after the other, and at this point they realized the battle was over. Before we could spread points, much of their fleet warped out--including their Bhaalgorn and some other shiny ships. :(

We finished off the remaining ships, including their Archon and Rev.

All in all, probably the longest, closest, and most tense battle I've ever been in. And definitely the most fun.

The BR just doesn't do the fight justice: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13032540

W-space best space.

Apolyon
April 24 2012, 07:43:29 PM
sound like good fun, but that's gay with 4 ecm boats. remind me of adhoc

Sandslinger
April 24 2012, 10:29:32 PM
sound like good fun, but that's gay with 4 ecm boats. remind me of adhoc

Meh whatever works, we just had a fight in Pulsar with armor fleet against carrier subcaps supported by 4 falcons and a scorp if the residents hadn't brought as much ECM to the field as they did we would have killed them all. props to em.

Counters and recounters. It's what the game is about =)

Sandslinger
April 24 2012, 10:29:51 PM
[..]

Shinjua
April 24 2012, 11:14:28 PM
I agree, we're not talking about a dishonoured 1v1 or bubble camping with falcon alt; you should compose your fleet of whatever you think has the best chance of beating the opposition. We don't use much ECM because other ewar (MORE BHAALGORN) tends to work better in most cases, not due to some misguided sense of e-honour.

Anyways back on topic, good job Red Circle and nice BR! I know I'm too much of a pussy to step up and FC a fleet worth several tens of billion isk :P

Apolyon
April 24 2012, 11:42:19 PM
ECM isn't so gay, it's only when you bring enough falcon so that each enemy ship has 2 ecm permarun on their ass

to that point that noone wants to fight

Sandslinger
April 25 2012, 06:25:26 AM
ECM isn't so gay, it's only when you bring enough falcon so that each enemy ship has 2 ecm permarun on their ass

to that point that noone wants to fight

Well there's the thing. what's enough??, when you don't necesarily even know the enemy fleet comp you bring as many as you have, as your guy just specifically stated he would do with Bhaalgorns (how many bhaalgorns can you bring before it's "gay).

Sorry to derail thread I just think calling someones fleet comp out as "gay" unnecessary. and best left to COAD or something ;)
It just leads on to arguments like "you jumped us with equal numbers and then decided to escalate it until you had near double our numbers you have no e-honour!!!" and other such rubbish

people will bring what works every time and try to ensure victory. lucklily there are plenty of counters for everything =) and Falcons and Blackbirds vanish in puffs of smoke to plenty of things :P

Nice BR red inc see you've had a proper wh battle =).

Asayanami Dei
April 25 2012, 08:57:58 AM
Logistics and carriers are there to counter raw dps, neuts are there to counter logistics, ecm is there to counter neuts, eccm is there to counter ecm and you can counter eccm in many ways. Think ahead and use clever tactics, complaining about ecm is silly. This isnt nullsec, where whoever brings the more alpha maelstorms wins.

Hatepeace Lovewar
April 25 2012, 11:28:14 AM
Long winded BR incoming...


Sounds like you had a nice fight mate, those sorts are the best, they are so tense and having only just come back to eve I have only recently begun to experience them and must say it really adds to the game for me to the point where it feels like almost an entirely new one.

Shinjua
April 25 2012, 09:36:04 PM
Here's a 'day in the life' story of some wormhole shenanigans I wrote quite a while ago but never got round to posting.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yesterday was pretty sweet; here's an AAR. I've pruned it a bit, but it's still pretty much a wall of text, so best get a cup o tea.

Saturday Morning Hangover. Everyone else is out of the hole white knighting a reinforced alliance POS (turned out to be a no-show from the aggressors), but I'm not feeling fit for human interaction so I stay home, scan a bit, and wait for my skull to stop trying to squeeze my brain out through my ears.

Spend the next hour AFK-gas-whoring, with Bacon. Yeah, I'm not proud of it. After the caffeine kicks in I head back out to scan for new sigs.

A few jumps down the chain I find a new C5 K162 which has been taken critical - could mean Interesting Times on the other side, so I jump on in. Nothing on the hole, but there's a bunch of wrecks on scan, and carrier + Loki sitting at a POS. I D-scan the wrecks to an anomaly and warp in to find a quad-cap-escalated site with all but the last wave of guardians killed (and un-looted!) - 20 high-grade sleeper BS wrecks and a few assorted others. The Loki and Nidhoggur both log, leaving a small fortune in sleeper tags lying on the field. My eyes light up with $$$ signs, but I decide to BM the site and come back after scanning the rest of the chain.

Exploring further, I find 3x high sec, low sec, 2x null sec (Fountain + Wicked Creek), C4 and C2. The C2 proves to be empty, but oh herro! Orca, Retriever, Drake on scan at a grav site in the C4. It's a small system, so I have to risk dropping probes inside scan range, and sure enough they spot me and bail. Oh well, maybe later.

I reship into a Zephyr, burn back to the crit C5, smile and wave at the sleepers as I shamelessly strip the corpses of their fallen broskis. A cheeky 400mil, not to be sniffed at!

After dropping off the loot, I reship to 100MN Tengu for a poke around in Fountain and then Wicked Creek (normally good for the odd Raven gank). I forage around a couple of neighbouring systems and come across an incautious Tengu, who dies (http://kb.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17908). Not much else going on (missed warp-ins on a couple of Drakes :/), so I reship to cloaky T3 and head back into the C4. No sign of the miners, but this time there's a Chimera off in dead space with wrecks!

This pricks up some ears on TS, and some of the boys start burning back from their low-sec staging system towards the hole. Unfortunately the Chimera warps before I even get on grid (guess they had cloaky eyes on the entrance). I follow to his POS and to my surprise land 10km off a CNR, who seems to be happily motoring AFK out of the force field at 88m/s. It's no Chimera, but hey faction is faction. It takes a little while, but he eventually boats >250k from the tower and the gank squad arrive, so I decloak / bump and point him up. His friends sit in their POS and watch him burn (http://kb.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17958).

Just as he goes down, one of our Volta buddies drops down on TS and calmly mentions that he has several carriers engaged on a gate in Insmother and would kindly appreciate some assistance at our earliest convenience (or words to that effect). By (yet another) stroke of luck, the system he links is 4 jumps from our Wicked Creek exit, so we reship to Tier 3s, poke a few AFK people into life and head out.

By the time we get there all but one of carriers have disengaged, so we mop up the smaller stuff and then proceed to fuck him up (http://kb.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17959)(TM), beating the self-destruct timer by a few seconds. While we loot the field, one of our Cynabals is playing with some RA dudes who are hugging a station next door in C-J. In the spirit of friendship he invites a Thanatos to join our fleet; he accepts (!) and is promptly squad warped to a nearby planet, where the rest of the gang fall on him and start blatting. A second Thanatos and some random support is warped in to the rescue, but to no avail - he dies (http://kb.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17930) shortly after the first (http://kb.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17951). At this point, a roaming alliance gang reaches us and joins the party - naturally we overheat to get the second Thanny down before they whore onto the mail.

A third (triage) Thanatos warps in, along with some armor support (baddons, 1 guardian), and we pile in. With some target switching we manage to alpha through his reps and down most of his support. Then local spikes up and they bring in a Drake blob with a few Scimitars to rescue the besieged triage pilot. We pull some range and start popping Scimis and then Drakes left right and centre, but in the midst of the brawl the Thanatos coasts out of triage and cynos out :(. Still, we gobble up a bunch more KMs before the remainder of their fleet warps off to the station. We follow them and manage to alpha a couple of things that are too slow to dock up.

By this time it's getting a bit late, so while the main roam carries on, a few of us head back to the hole. We pop a handful (http://kb.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17954) of (http://kb.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17957) bombers (http://kb.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17956) and some light (http://kb.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17961) tackle (http://kb.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17955) that try and catch our stragglers. The total kill tally is quite satisfactory (http://kb.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=22219&adjacent=1) :).

Just as I'm about to call it a night, we're handed a bonus gank: a shopping alt finds a small camp (Broadsword, Arazu, Cerberus, Vagabond, Thorax) on his high sec entrance. We try and bait them off with a Tengu, but they burn back to the hole as soon as we appear on scan, leaving behind an unlucky Arazu (http://kb.eveaquila.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17962).

All in all a pretty successful day - an epic fight near the end, but also some good ol' cloak-and-dagger hole plundering that reminds me why I love W-Space :D.

Rengas
April 25 2012, 09:49:57 PM
This isnt nullsec, where whoever brings the more alpha maelstorms wins.

So for you nullsec is just the battle reports you see between CFC and Raiden/NC. ?

Zensige
April 25 2012, 10:19:23 PM
Lots of nice BRs to keep me busy at work, thanks for posting.

My corp moved into our C5/C3 after being in a C5/C5 for a year, and basically getting sick of the logistics. We chose the C5/C3 as the static can produce all types of connections (0.0, Ls, highsec, c1-c4) which we initially thought would provide us with fights. It has but mostly in 0.0 or Ls, it is sad how many c1-c4 residents refuse to fight in any shape of form.
Guess we should have gone to c6 for all the gfs :P

Wrack
April 26 2012, 12:43:37 AM
Lots of nice BRs to keep me busy at work, thanks for posting.

My corp moved into our C5/C3 after being in a C5/C5 for a year, and basically getting sick of the logistics. We chose the C5/C3 as the static can produce all types of connections (0.0, Ls, highsec, c1-c4) which we initially thought would provide us with fights. It has but mostly in 0.0 or Ls, it is sad how many c1-c4 residents refuse to fight in any shape of form.
Guess we should have gone to c6 for all the gfs :P

C3s can only have k-space statics. For getting low-key pew, the best thing to have is absolutely a static C2. C2s are the most occupied wormhole class (damn near 100%) and each one has a k-space and a w-space static. Yes there are lots of horribly risk averse people, but there are also a good number of willing combatants in C2s who are lower SP or just don't want to commit the isk required to be competitive with the T3+Cap fleets in C6s. Plus tons of bogglingly incompetent idiots to gank.

Fatyn
April 26 2012, 07:29:12 AM
That's good advice from Wrack. There's actually quite a lot of depth to the decision of what wormhole to stick your flag down into, as to some extent it's going to define your corp's pattern of behaviour for the duration of your stay. If you want to maximise your chances of wormhole pew, you need as big a wormhole network as possible. That means using signature sizes to scan through chains quickly and efficiently, and when your chain ends in k-space, scan the k-space and surrounding systems for more chains!

As for 'refusing to fight in any shape or form' - I think you're expecting it to come a bit too easy :) Fights that start with both sides deciding 'OK lets battle these dudes' are pretty rare. Learn the ways of the stalk, the bait, the trap, the slow-roll, the bubble, the collapse, the bump! This is how wormhole fights start :)

Cue1*
April 26 2012, 03:54:24 PM
That's good advice from Wrack. There's actually quite a lot of depth to the decision of what wormhole to stick your flag down into, as to some extent it's going to define your corp's pattern of behaviour for the duration of your stay. If you want to maximise your chances of wormhole pew, you need as big a wormhole network as possible. That means using signature sizes to scan through chains quickly and efficiently, and when your chain ends in k-space, scan the k-space and surrounding systems for more chains!

As for 'refusing to fight in any shape or form' - I think you're expecting it to come a bit too easy :) Fights that start with both sides deciding 'OK lets battle these dudes' are pretty rare. Learn the ways of the stalk, the bait, the trap, the slow-roll, the bubble, the collapse, the bump! This is how wormhole fights start :)

Lately, our luck has been better in C3s. Catching people running anoms and not watching Dscan has been pretty easy lately. As far as real stand up fights, those have been turned down every single time we offer them, even at very significant disadvantages.

LordsServant
April 27 2012, 05:46:56 PM
That's good advice from Wrack. There's actually quite a lot of depth to the decision of what wormhole to stick your flag down into, as to some extent it's going to define your corp's pattern of behaviour for the duration of your stay. If you want to maximise your chances of wormhole pew, you need as big a wormhole network as possible. That means using signature sizes to scan through chains quickly and efficiently, and when your chain ends in k-space, scan the k-space and surrounding systems for more chains!

As for 'refusing to fight in any shape or form' - I think you're expecting it to come a bit too easy :) Fights that start with both sides deciding 'OK lets battle these dudes' are pretty rare. Learn the ways of the stalk, the bait, the trap, the slow-roll, the bubble, the collapse, the bump! This is how wormhole fights start :)

Lately, our luck has been better in C3s. Catching people running anoms and not watching Dscan has been pretty easy lately. As far as real stand up fights, those have been turned down every single time we offer them, even at very significant disadvantages.

Issue there is u have carebear-only faggots just isk whoring. Pull a green-core tbh. Park a scanner alt in system, wait for their low time, bring ur fleet in, then rapecage POS/hole control. Kill all of their stuff and harvest the tears - "contribute to wspace or get the fuck out carebear faggot" is the general idea.

w01f geo
April 28 2012, 12:12:49 PM
Hello all dear wormholers :)

Here is short battle report about rooks and kings fail to rape TEMNAVA in anomaly.

http://tmall.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13196480

We were doing capital escalations in our home system when our scout reported new signature in our wh, scanned it and it was C5-K162.
Third escalation was almost done, couple of npc battleships left and we had in that moment in site 3 moroses, two triage chimeras, one rapier and huginN and bunch of tengus, and we didnt believe someone can surprise us and attack us fast, coz all serious fleets are armor fleets and whoever wants to attack us need to reship coz our home is C6 pulsar so we have time.
Then surprise and WTF???
Scout reports rooks and kings fleet jumping in with 2 archons, 3 bhaalgorns, 2 kronos, devoter, damnation and lots of proteus and warping. Thank you God :lock:
We had cpl of ecm tengus but we also bring scorpion and falcon for any case 8-) They landed, their bubble was up and fight starts.
Their bhaalgorns were perma jammed, fc started to call targets, webbers done their job great, their archons couldnt rep them and whole fight last 4 minutes. Real shame we were in pve ships without any scramblers or disruptors so we didnt catch more of them, but we are very thankful to rnk devoter pilot, he done great job for us :D
12b for 4 minutes, not bad... and also a gift from TEMNAVA to whole eve community, their kronos fit :D

But what their fc was thinking??? Maybe will just stay there and watch how they shoot at us without fight? wtf.... and also free tip for him: PULSAR = 50% minus armor resistances and double shield hitpoints...


Best regards, W01F GEO

LordsServant
April 28 2012, 12:39:34 PM
Hello all dear wormholers :)

Here is short battle report about rooks and kings fail to rape TEMNAVA in anomaly.

http://tmall.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13196480

We were doing capital escalations in our home system when our scout reported new signature in our wh, scanned it and it was C5-K162.
Third escalation was almost done, couple of npc battleships left and we had in that moment in site 3 moroses, two triage chimeras, one rapier and huginN and bunch of tengus, and we didnt believe someone can surprise us and attack us fast, coz all serious fleets are armor fleets and whoever wants to attack us need to reship coz our home is C6 pulsar so we have time.
Then surprise and WTF???
Scout reports rooks and kings fleet jumping in with 2 archons, 3 bhaalgorns, 2 kronos, devoter, damnation and lots of proteus and warping. Thank you God :lock:
We had cpl of ecm tengus but we also bring scorpion and falcon for any case 8-) They landed, their bubble was up and fight starts.
Their bhaalgorns were perma jammed, fc started to call targets, webbers done their job great, their archons couldnt rep them and whole fight last 4 minutes. Real shame we were in pve ships without any scramblers or disruptors so we didnt catch more of them, but we are very thankful to rnk devoter pilot, he done great job for us :D
12b for 4 minutes, not bad... and also a gift from TEMNAVA to whole eve community, their kronos fit :D

But what their fc was thinking??? Maybe will just stay there and watch how they shoot at us without fight? wtf.... and also free tip for him: PULSAR = 50% minus armor resistances and double shield hitpoints...


Best regards, W01F GEO

A-Type eanm, but no t2 trimarks. :psyduck:

That said, getting fights when u have that "HARK" "K162" etc etc ticker is extremely difficult. TBQH half the time u need to leeroy into fights against all odds to try and get a fight. They just happened to leeroy into guys who didn't panic, knew what they were doing, and weren't afraid. :)

NJ on killing em, and it was p. ballsy for them to bring a full retard armor fleet against that much in a pulsar, even if you were PVEing.

Liptonez
April 29 2012, 01:25:45 AM
A-Type eanm, but no t2 trimarks. :psyduck:

Unlike an EANM a T2 trimarks are a waste, though.

Anyway. I guess they underestimated the effects of Pulsars. We tried to fight in those before (was actually temnava, too).

Trying to fight a shield fleet with an armor fleet in a Pulsar is like trying to fight a Sabre in 10 unfitted Rifters.

Cue1*
April 29 2012, 05:38:40 AM
That's good advice from Wrack. There's actually quite a lot of depth to the decision of what wormhole to stick your flag down into, as to some extent it's going to define your corp's pattern of behaviour for the duration of your stay. If you want to maximise your chances of wormhole pew, you need as big a wormhole network as possible. That means using signature sizes to scan through chains quickly and efficiently, and when your chain ends in k-space, scan the k-space and surrounding systems for more chains!

As for 'refusing to fight in any shape or form' - I think you're expecting it to come a bit too easy :) Fights that start with both sides deciding 'OK lets battle these dudes' are pretty rare. Learn the ways of the stalk, the bait, the trap, the slow-roll, the bubble, the collapse, the bump! This is how wormhole fights start :)

Lately, our luck has been better in C3s. Catching people running anoms and not watching Dscan has been pretty easy lately. As far as real stand up fights, those have been turned down every single time we offer them, even at very significant disadvantages.

Issue there is u have carebear-only faggots just isk whoring. Pull a green-core tbh. Park a scanner alt in system, wait for their low time, bring ur fleet in, then rapecage POS/hole control. Kill all of their stuff and harvest the tears - "contribute to wspace or get the fuck out carebear faggot" is the general idea.

Encountered an 11 man corp I wanted to do this to last night. The big issue with doing that in a C3 is the lack of dreads, meaning smaller groups can't really do anything to a POS without just sitting there for HOURS shooting it.

LordsServant
April 29 2012, 02:45:26 PM
Issue there is u have carebear-only faggots just isk whoring. Pull a green-core tbh. Park a scanner alt in system, wait for their low time, bring ur fleet in, then rapecage POS/hole control. Kill all of their stuff and harvest the tears - "contribute to wspace or get the fuck out carebear faggot" is the general idea.

Encountered an 11 man corp I wanted to do this to last night. The big issue with doing that in a C3 is the lack of dreads, meaning smaller groups can't really do anything to a POS without just sitting there for HOURS shooting it.

Tier 3 BCs, or just rapecage their POS/starve them out. Also, there are mercs you can hire (we personally have started to decline a few pos bashing contracts as we really hate doing it, but there are others who will, and ofc if u paid us enough we'd do it).

Tellenta
April 29 2012, 09:10:57 PM
Issue there is u have carebear-only faggots just isk whoring. Pull a green-core tbh. Park a scanner alt in system, wait for their low time, bring ur fleet in, then rapecage POS/hole control. Kill all of their stuff and harvest the tears - "contribute to wspace or get the fuck out carebear faggot" is the general idea.

Encountered an 11 man corp I wanted to do this to last night. The big issue with doing that in a C3 is the lack of dreads, meaning smaller groups can't really do anything to a POS without just sitting there for HOURS shooting it.

Tier 3 BCs, or just rapecage their POS/starve them out. Also, there are mercs you can hire (we personally have started to decline a few pos bashing contracts as we really hate doing it, but there are others who will, and ofc if u paid us enough we'd do it).

That would require us caring more about them than wanting to shoot upon their faces and elbows. We didn't want their space just their wrecks.

Cue1*
April 30 2012, 12:39:18 AM
Issue there is u have carebear-only faggots just isk whoring. Pull a green-core tbh. Park a scanner alt in system, wait for their low time, bring ur fleet in, then rapecage POS/hole control. Kill all of their stuff and harvest the tears - "contribute to wspace or get the fuck out carebear faggot" is the general idea.

Encountered an 11 man corp I wanted to do this to last night. The big issue with doing that in a C3 is the lack of dreads, meaning smaller groups can't really do anything to a POS without just sitting there for HOURS shooting it.

Tier 3 BCs, or just rapecage their POS/starve them out. Also, there are mercs you can hire (we personally have started to decline a few pos bashing contracts as we really hate doing it, but there are others who will, and ofc if u paid us enough we'd do it).

That would require us caring more about them than wanting to shoot upon their faces and elbows. We didn't want their space just their wrecks.

Even in Ti3's we'd be shooting for 9 hours to RF their POSs. Not a fun day as far as I'm concerned.

Wrack
April 30 2012, 04:59:43 PM
Encountered an 11 man corp I wanted to do this to last night. The big issue with doing that in a C3 is the lack of dreads, meaning smaller groups can't really do anything to a POS without just sitting there for HOURS shooting it.

Tier 3 BCs, or just rapecage their POS/starve them out. Also, there are mercs you can hire (we personally have started to decline a few pos bashing contracts as we really hate doing it, but there are others who will, and ofc if u paid us enough we'd do it).

Pro tip: POSes have defenses. There's no shortcut around the fact that you need serious numbers to engage a POS, while it takes only 1 guy to build that POS.

LordsServant
April 30 2012, 05:36:04 PM
Encountered an 11 man corp I wanted to do this to last night. The big issue with doing that in a C3 is the lack of dreads, meaning smaller groups can't really do anything to a POS without just sitting there for HOURS shooting it.

Tier 3 BCs, or just rapecage their POS/starve them out. Also, there are mercs you can hire (we personally have started to decline a few pos bashing contracts as we really hate doing it, but there are others who will, and ofc if u paid us enough we'd do it).

Pro tip: POSes have defenses. There's no shortcut around the fact that you need serious numbers to engage a POS, while it takes only 1 guy to build that POS.

This is the only drawback of WH space imo. :(

In k-space you can drop 20-50 dreads/titans and RF a POS in a couple minutes or w/e, in WH space not as easy. :S

Smuggo
April 30 2012, 06:29:22 PM
Encountered an 11 man corp I wanted to do this to last night. The big issue with doing that in a C3 is the lack of dreads, meaning smaller groups can't really do anything to a POS without just sitting there for HOURS shooting it.

Tier 3 BCs, or just rapecage their POS/starve them out. Also, there are mercs you can hire (we personally have started to decline a few pos bashing contracts as we really hate doing it, but there are others who will, and ofc if u paid us enough we'd do it).

Pro tip: POSes have defenses. There's no shortcut around the fact that you need serious numbers to engage a POS, while it takes only 1 guy to build that POS.

This is the main advantage of WH space imo.


FYP

Wrack
April 30 2012, 08:44:02 PM
Which is an advantage, that people don't drop 50 titans on things, or that a corp of 5 noobs can hide in a fortress completely impenetrable by any group of less than 30?

Smuggo
April 30 2012, 09:39:37 PM
Which is an advantage, that people don't drop 50 titans on things, or that a corp of 5 noobs can hide in a fortress completely impenetrable by any group of less than 30?

I'm fine with both those TBH.

Smuggo
April 30 2012, 09:39:55 PM
Which is an advantage, that people don't drop 50 titans on things, or that a corp of 5 noobs can hide in a fortress completely impenetrable by any group of less than 30?

I'm fine with both those TBH.

LordsServant
April 30 2012, 10:02:11 PM
Which is an advantage, that people don't drop 50 titans on things, or that a corp of 5 noobs can hide in a fortress completely impenetrable by any group of less than 30?

I'm fine with both those TBH.

I definitely don't think that people should be dropping 50 titans on stuff, as that's gay as fuck and I agree that it's a huge advantage of WH space, but there definitely is the issue of entrenched people who don't feel like fighting, and the amount of :EFFORT: required to kick them out isn't really worth the time.

What about CCP doing a blanket 1/2 reduction in POS shield HP in WHs? The "no megablobs/supercaps" thing is nice, but without those, it's difficult to remove large towers :S

xanral
April 30 2012, 10:06:15 PM
With 0.0 or LS you can store 90% of your ships in a nearby station so not having 23/7 POS watch isn't the end of the world for you if you only have a small or medium POS up. Even with the current mechanics you can generally wreck a WH corp without resorting to the mind-numbing task of POS assault. As this is supposed to be a forum for battle reports I'll use a story as an example.

Last year we ran into an alliance that we were old enemies with when we connected to a C1 held by 2 of their corps. We were able to coax a small skirmish out of them but after we killed them they were unwilling to engage further. They had 3 large towers in the system that we had no hopes of blowing up, especially as they actually had a response team that would arrive given a few hours and we couldn't use battleships.

So we stuck an unscannable (this was per-nerf) crucifier alt in system that would probe down the entire system and generally be visible and obvious. If they did nothing then a mostly afk crucifier kept them shut down. If they went mining then the manticore that was actually the one scanning half the time would drop in on them and blow them up. Occasionally they would try things that involved combat ships in which case we might bring our combat ships to blow them up taken we had constant up-to-date intel and they knew it.

This lead to periods of either nothing being done in the wormhole or else ships dieing. After a week 1 corp left the alliance and the other left the WH. The crucifier alt and manticore pilot spent less time then they would have working to blow up a small POS and the other pilots involved only came when there was a fight so their time was well spent.

We've done similar to quite a few groups who were unwilling to engage and generally it has brought us fights, a great deal more than POS bashes. Normally all we had to do was offer the crucifier alt at a spot they could attack it and they'd go into the fight even though they would know we had a fleet on hand. I'm not saying that people should try to mimic this exact tactic (especially with the scan changes), just that not every problem has to be solved with the POS bash hammer.

Liptonez
May 1 2012, 07:03:28 PM
I don't really understand the shield HP stuff. In higher class wormholes where systems actually matter, people can throw countless dreads at people. If you can't, well, sorry. Having a dread or two is nothing much to ask for.
As for lower class holes... Just camp them or something? If you gank them in/at the end of anoms all the time, they will eventually stop trying to do stuff.

I just really don't understand what the problem is. If you can't assemble a fleet to take down a tower, then you're either just bad or you don't play the numbers game. Yeah, a tower can do what 5k DPS, but if the guys owning it won't engage in PVP with you, they most likely don't know that you can man POS guns either.

Tellenta
May 1 2012, 07:23:33 PM
I don't really understand the shield HP stuff. In higher class wormholes where systems actually matter, people can throw countless dreads at people. If you can't, well, sorry. Having a dread or two is nothing much to ask for.
As for lower class holes... Just camp them or something? If you gank them in/at the end of anoms all the time, they will eventually stop trying to do stuff.

I just really don't understand what the problem is. If you can't assemble a fleet to take down a tower, then you're either just bad or you don't play the numbers game. Yeah, a tower can do what 5k DPS, but if the guys owning it won't engage in PVP with you, they most likely don't know that you can man POS guns either.

It's just a basic whine because no one and I mean no one enjoys grinding through a pos. Everyone complains about it, even the people with shit tons of dreads. It's the pvp equivalent of being forced to mine trit without the benefit of making isk.

Tellenta
May 1 2012, 07:23:51 PM
double post worst post.

Omen Nihilo
May 1 2012, 08:28:40 PM
Update on the ongoing effort to cleanse w-space of russian farmers:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13245620
2nd Thanny, Rev, and Moros self-destructed. :(

Looks like Exhale. also started May with a bang:
http://exhale.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13244555

Srsly, when is CCP going to implement SD killmails...?

Casparas
May 1 2012, 09:21:17 PM
WH stats for April: http://i.imgur.com/jNbUB.png

Smuggo
May 1 2012, 09:30:32 PM
Did not make the list. (whatever it is)

Casparas
May 1 2012, 10:09:32 PM
Did not make the list. (whatever it is)

Post your corp or alliance and ill add you.

Casparas
May 1 2012, 10:09:50 PM
Did not make the list. (whatever it is)

Double post

Liptonez
May 2 2012, 05:25:11 AM
WH stats for April: http://i.imgur.com/jNbUB.png

Love those graphs. They actually tell so much about the alliances and what they live in wormholes for.

Sandslinger
May 2 2012, 07:07:09 AM
WH stats for April: http://i.imgur.com/jNbUB.png

Love those graphs. They actually tell so much about the alliances and what they live in wormholes for.

Can you expand the list to show how much was killed in K space and how much in W space 8-)

Nice work though =)

Cue1*
May 2 2012, 07:38:05 AM
I don't really understand the shield HP stuff. In higher class wormholes where systems actually matter, people can throw countless dreads at people. If you can't, well, sorry. Having a dread or two is nothing much to ask for.
As for lower class holes... Just camp them or something? If you gank them in/at the end of anoms all the time, they will eventually stop trying to do stuff.

I just really don't understand what the problem is. If you can't assemble a fleet to take down a tower, then you're either just bad or you don't play the numbers game. Yeah, a tower can do what 5k DPS, but if the guys owning it won't engage in PVP with you, they most likely don't know that you can man POS guns either.

It's just a basic whine because no one and I mean no one enjoys grinding through a pos. Everyone complains about it, even the people with shit tons of dreads. It's the pvp equivalent of being forced to mine trit without the benefit of making isk.

More importantly, it's just stupid. If you want to force carebears to fight, your only answer is to gank them if they're in a C4 or lower. I understand that in wormhole space it's important to have a bit more security, but a small 4 man corp shouldn't be able to hide for days behind a POS while a significantly larger corp has no opportunity to force them out. I don't have a suggestion that would work, I just think the system is broken.

Sandslinger
May 2 2012, 08:19:41 AM
I don't really understand the shield HP stuff. In higher class wormholes where systems actually matter, people can throw countless dreads at people. If you can't, well, sorry. Having a dread or two is nothing much to ask for.
As for lower class holes... Just camp them or something? If you gank them in/at the end of anoms all the time, they will eventually stop trying to do stuff.

I just really don't understand what the problem is. If you can't assemble a fleet to take down a tower, then you're either just bad or you don't play the numbers game. Yeah, a tower can do what 5k DPS, but if the guys owning it won't engage in PVP with you, they most likely don't know that you can man POS guns either.

It's just a basic whine because no one and I mean no one enjoys grinding through a pos. Everyone complains about it, even the people with shit tons of dreads. It's the pvp equivalent of being forced to mine trit without the benefit of making isk.

More importantly, it's just stupid. If you want to force carebears to fight, your only answer is to gank them if they're in a C4 or lower. I understand that in wormhole space it's important to have a bit more security, but a small 4 man corp shouldn't be able to hide for days behind a POS while a significantly larger corp has no opportunity to force them out. I don't have a suggestion that would work, I just think the system is broken.

Perhaps this discussion could move somewhere more appropriate ?

Tellenta
May 2 2012, 09:13:01 AM
I don't really understand the shield HP stuff. In higher class wormholes where systems actually matter, people can throw countless dreads at people. If you can't, well, sorry. Having a dread or two is nothing much to ask for.
As for lower class holes... Just camp them or something? If you gank them in/at the end of anoms all the time, they will eventually stop trying to do stuff.

I just really don't understand what the problem is. If you can't assemble a fleet to take down a tower, then you're either just bad or you don't play the numbers game. Yeah, a tower can do what 5k DPS, but if the guys owning it won't engage in PVP with you, they most likely don't know that you can man POS guns either.

It's just a basic whine because no one and I mean no one enjoys grinding through a pos. Everyone complains about it, even the people with shit tons of dreads. It's the pvp equivalent of being forced to mine trit without the benefit of making isk.

More importantly, it's just stupid. If you want to force carebears to fight, your only answer is to gank them if they're in a C4 or lower. I understand that in wormhole space it's important to have a bit more security, but a small 4 man corp shouldn't be able to hide for days behind a POS while a significantly larger corp has no opportunity to force them out. I don't have a suggestion that would work, I just think the system is broken.

Perhaps this discussion could move somewhere more appropriate ?

The emo thread isn't about eve.

Smuggo
May 2 2012, 10:33:00 AM
I don't really understand the shield HP stuff. In higher class wormholes where systems actually matter, people can throw countless dreads at people. If you can't, well, sorry. Having a dread or two is nothing much to ask for.
As for lower class holes... Just camp them or something? If you gank them in/at the end of anoms all the time, they will eventually stop trying to do stuff.

I just really don't understand what the problem is. If you can't assemble a fleet to take down a tower, then you're either just bad or you don't play the numbers game. Yeah, a tower can do what 5k DPS, but if the guys owning it won't engage in PVP with you, they most likely don't know that you can man POS guns either.

It's just a basic whine because no one and I mean no one enjoys grinding through a pos. Everyone complains about it, even the people with shit tons of dreads. It's the pvp equivalent of being forced to mine trit without the benefit of making isk.

More importantly, it's just stupid. If you want to force carebears to fight, your only answer is to gank them if they're in a C4 or lower. I understand that in wormhole space it's important to have a bit more security, but a small 4 man corp shouldn't be able to hide for days behind a POS while a significantly larger corp has no opportunity to force them out. I don't have a suggestion that would work, I just think the system is broken.

No.

The best thing about W-Space is that it does, to some extent, counter the usual Eve logic of more people = better. Just because some corp is just a few buddies playing the game, or doesn't just take on any fucking idiot into their ranks, why should that then make them subservient to some bigger corp/alliance? Your post typified the 0.0 attitude of "why can't my blob win, it's not fair, I have more friends".

Why do you even care that a few noobs have a WH fortress? It's not like the gudfites are going to suddenly flow because the POS has less EHP.

You just want a few pathetic and easy ganks. WH POS mechanics are fine as they are.



Did not make the list. (whatever it is)

Post your corp or alliance and ill add you.

Idol Corp m8. http://idol.eve-kill.net

Malaes
May 2 2012, 10:50:07 AM
I'm 90% sure all our kills on that are from gank nights :D

LordsServant
May 2 2012, 12:08:32 PM
I don't really understand the shield HP stuff. In higher class wormholes where systems actually matter, people can throw countless dreads at people. If you can't, well, sorry. Having a dread or two is nothing much to ask for.
As for lower class holes... Just camp them or something? If you gank them in/at the end of anoms all the time, they will eventually stop trying to do stuff.

I just really don't understand what the problem is. If you can't assemble a fleet to take down a tower, then you're either just bad or you don't play the numbers game. Yeah, a tower can do what 5k DPS, but if the guys owning it won't engage in PVP with you, they most likely don't know that you can man POS guns either.

It's just a basic whine because no one and I mean no one enjoys grinding through a pos. Everyone complains about it, even the people with shit tons of dreads. It's the pvp equivalent of being forced to mine trit without the benefit of making isk.

More importantly, it's just stupid. If you want to force carebears to fight, your only answer is to gank them if they're in a C4 or lower. I understand that in wormhole space it's important to have a bit more security, but a small 4 man corp shouldn't be able to hide for days behind a POS while a significantly larger corp has no opportunity to force them out. I don't have a suggestion that would work, I just think the system is broken.

No.

The best thing about W-Space is that it does, to some extent, counter the usual Eve logic of more people = better. Just because some corp is just a few buddies playing the game, or doesn't just take on any fucking idiot into their ranks, why should that then make them subservient to some bigger corp/alliance? Your post typified the 0.0 attitude of "why can't my blob win, it's not fair, I have more friends".

Why do you even care that a few noobs have a WH fortress? It's not like the gudfites are going to suddenly flow because the POS has less EHP.

You just want a few pathetic and easy ganks. WH POS mechanics are fine as they are.


I don't think your grasp of WH mechanics is all the way there m8.

Noobs shouldn't have a WH fortress.

A few GOOD people are welcome to have a WH fortress. This already exists without POS - if someone comes into your system, hop into 1-2 triage archons, 2-3 tracking dreads, 2-3 lokis/bhaalgorns, and you can easily rape an exponentially larger group (just make sure u blap the bhaalgorns first, or use your bhaals to win the capacitor war.

The issue that we have is that instead of leveraging their lower numbers to curbstomp a "blob", they're just not engaging and spinning in their POS. Without said "blob" putting a in a grossly disproportionate amount of effort(and very boring time) to kill their POS, there's not much else they can do. Noone likes bashing POS with subcaps, and noone wants to spend weeks camping a system to starve them out with absolutely no fights in between. (Only reason you'd do this is if you REALLY hated them, or wanted to invade their WH in which case they're fucked unless they pay my alliance a lot of money to come save them. =D )

This does not make for good or engaging gameplay for the odd passer by just looking for "good fights."

CCP should do something to make the "run to POS, hide/log off for a few hours" method much less effective, or counterable besides "setup cloaky dictor inline, bubble when u make urself known, hope their t3's arent nullified."

Smuggo
May 2 2012, 12:15:08 PM
The issue that we have is that instead of leveraging their lower numbers to curbstomp a "blob", they're just not engaging and spinning in their POS. Without said "blob" putting a in a grossly disproportionate amount of effort(and very boring time) to kill their POS, there's not much else they can do. Noone likes bashing POS with subcaps, and noone wants to spend weeks camping a system to starve them out with absolutely no fights in between.

So it's not okay for them to have an easy time sitting in the pos, but it should be okay for you to have an easy time killing the pos? Double standards much?

corbex
May 2 2012, 12:31:40 PM
To be honest this isnt just a problem in low class wh's is alot of people in c5 or c6 who are there purely to farm isk that at teh first sign of a new sig in theer system log off in site, or in a pos. and its almost pointless spending 2 days seiging a system only for them to log caps and be abck in business a week later. Most these people also use the leaching method to make it even safer so sleepers dont get in range to point or nuet them, hopefully ccp will fix this or just declare it a expliot.

Artjay
May 2 2012, 01:15:44 PM
its almost pointless spending 2 days seiging a system DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGIDNGIDNGIDNGIDNGID NGIDNGIDNGIDNGIDNGIDNGIDNG

:)

Qui Shon
May 2 2012, 01:56:13 PM
To be honest this isnt just a problem in low class wh's is alot of people in c5 or c6 who are there purely to farm isk that at teh first sign of a new sig in theer system log off in site, or in a pos. and its almost pointless spending 2 days seiging a system only for them to log caps and be abck in business a week later. Most these people also use the leaching method to make it even safer so sleepers dont get in range to point or nuet them, hopefully ccp will fix this or just declare it a expliot.

What's this lee(a)ching method? Using range setup and warping out before sleepers get in point range?
I "watched" on d-scan some Russian corp killing sleepers with two Revs and nothing else, but they warped out of site before I could get probes on them (radar or something non-anom). If that's what you're talking about then I don't see the problem, or why it would be an exploit?

There's still methods to catch them, in fact its easier now as logoffski doesn't stop aggression like it used to, so imho it's already been made more ganker friendly.

Damien Smith
May 2 2012, 02:06:49 PM
"Oh noes! People actually spend the time, isk and effort to build an easily defensible home and I don't like the advantages that gives them"

Why should any random pubbie gank fleet be given carte blanche to destroy POS's at will? You want them dead, you put the fucking effort in...

Artjay
May 2 2012, 02:09:09 PM
I wrote this this morning and realised it was a bit strongly worded so I trashed it, but then I read Lordsservants post and dug it out of the Recycle Bin.

___________________________________________


I realise I’m going to piss off some people with this post and will get a lot of ‘didn’t want you in w-space anyways’ replies but fuck it.

I recently left w-space to head back to null-sec, and one of the factors was the recent entrenchment of the mantra, I think originally touted by K162 and relentlessly copied by many other sycophantic wannabes of 'contribute to w-space or get out’. This is bullshit; people who espouse it come across as looking like they have limited understanding of both human interaction and eve-online.

Dont get me wrong, I love the mechanics of w-space, and i dont deny that there are some awesome fights to be had, but too many people seem to fail to grasp the fact that eve is a sandbox, and that wormholes are not the arenas of world of warcraft where you line up against each other, proceed to attack in a gentlemanly fashion before bowing to each other at the end and proceeding back to their respective POS’es. No. Eve online is a sandbox game, and whether you care to admit it or not - the majority of w-space is a gankbox game.

It appears to me that the ‘contribute or get out’ club has evolved over time in order to act as a comfort blanket to those corps who use it. These corps think that not doing much and using expensive ships makes them good at PVP when actually it mans that, they don’t have to put as much effort into invading other peoples space to make themselves look hard since they only invade people who don’t have the intention of defending themselves. Additionally, it prevents attack on their own systems by the only people that have the capability to competently mount an invasion.

The recent unification of many said corps to send a ‘message’ to that shit AAA corp, confirmed my perception that the higher echelons of w-space are gagging for another large-scale invasion/battle similar to when Starbridge & Co. invaded Aquila so they can try and stay evenews24 relevant, yet are far to risk averse/lazy to co-ordinate an attack in case it ends up with another miserable failure like when they tried to invade Guillotine therapy space.

Back to the sandbox part, obviously in this game people set your own goals, and if making a big wad of cash is your goal, then safe-ing up every time a Narwhals/whoever guy jumps into your system is probably a wise thing to do. As long as w-space is the most lucrative form of ISK income (besides possibly moon goo and being a whiz at the markets) it will be filled with alt-corps for people who plex-to-play, people who are saving for a titan, whatever. Part of the sandbox is creating your own content. There are plenty of ways to force a conflict with someone and if you can’t be bothered to put in the effort or don’t have the imagination to make that happen… deal with it.

corbex
May 2 2012, 02:14:42 PM
To be honest this isnt just a problem in low class wh's is alot of people in c5 or c6 who are there purely to farm isk that at teh first sign of a new sig in theer system log off in site, or in a pos. and its almost pointless spending 2 days seiging a system only for them to log caps and be abck in business a week later. Most these people also use the leaching method to make it even safer so sleepers dont get in range to point or nuet them, hopefully ccp will fix this or just declare it a expliot.

What's this lee(a)ching method? Using range setup and warping out before sleepers get in point range?
I "watched" on d-scan some Russian corp killing sleepers with two Revs and nothing else, but they warped out of site before I could get probes on them (radar or something non-anom). If that's what you're talking about then I don't see the problem, or why it would be an exploit?

There's still methods to catch them, in fact its easier now as logoffski doesn't stop aggression like it used to, so imho it's already been made more ganker friendly.

you basically extend the grid to about 450 km and then just warp in all caps at once 2 dreads 2 carrier the sleeper bs will only go 250km from the spawn point then they hit a invisible wall and bounce against it so they never get in point or neut range and the dreads can just sit 150 to 200km from them picking them off with no worries at all as they have 0 transveral.

Sandslinger
May 2 2012, 02:40:47 PM
you basically extend the grid to about 450 km and then just warp in all caps at once 2 dreads 2 carrier the sleeper bs will only go 250km from the spawn point then they hit a invisible wall and bounce against it so they never get in point or neut range and the dreads can just sit 150 to 200km from them picking them off with no worries at all as they have 0 transveral.

Dingduckding and we have a winner....Figured you all knew this......I guess not

A corp doesn't need a pos to be complete isk whores in WH all they need is capitals and in the lower classes they don't even need that.

In fact POS's represent investment in WH and in the system itself. the more POS's the larger the investment.

Once a corp has put some up you actually have means of hurting them before that If a corp or hell a multiboxer does it right there is no actual ingame method of catching them. besides perhaps logging off in the site you think they are going to do next and praying and hoping that somehow you land directly on top of them when you log in..which well you won't if they do it right.

Perhaps CCP could do something to make pos shoots more fun or whatever tbh I would be more worried about them breaking the game if they tried but that's just me.

In any case that's 3 pages worth of emo/hurt feelings/vague and not so vague insults. These kind of discussions always end up this way there's 6 classes and people with hugely varying playstyles there will be no agreement here........

Could we perhaps take this discussion somewhere else now ?? . I keep seeing this thread updated and I get all excited as it's usually excelent content yet there's 3 pages of pure disapoint now :cut:

Durzel
May 2 2012, 03:05:14 PM
The issue that we have is that instead of leveraging their lower numbers to curbstomp a "blob", they're just not engaging and spinning in their POS. Without said "blob" putting a in a grossly disproportionate amount of effort(and very boring time) to kill their POS, there's not much else they can do.
The blob could bring less ships, you know, to encourage an actual fight. Bringing a disproportionate number of ships to try and get a fight out of people who you should assume are reticent to fight unless their history suggests otherwise seems like a pretty dumb strategy. Is it any wonder these people recoil when they see everything including the kitchen sink thrown at them?

Some people won't fight if they see one ship appear on dscan, others might fight if they think they can win. Few will fight if they already know they are heavily outnumbered and will have to rely on a perfect strategy and hope that there aren't any more hostiles on their way, waiting in the wings, or whatever.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Smuggo - people who have a really big issue with POSes in lower class wormholes are basically just people looking to curbstomp bears for no other reason than "because". They aren't looking for ~goodfights~ and they aren't overly concerned about the lack of a fight, since any fight they expect to take place would surely be a one-sided gank in any event. Shockingly people who don't want to fight are invariably bad at fighting and don't have Bhaals and triage Carriers to use on a whim.

Ampoliros
May 2 2012, 03:25:27 PM
I wrote this this morning and realised it was a bit strongly worded so I trashed it, but then I read Lordsservants post and dug it out of the Recycle Bin.

Read your post and the only real argument i see is that "Because eve is a sandbox, carebears have the right to bear without fighting and we should deal with it", which is a pretty bad argument (no offense). Hell, same logic: because eve is a sandbox, i should be able to kick whomever i don't like out of w-space, for whatever reason I want - including for being unapologetic carebears. Point is, there's already space where you don't have to pvp and can bear everyday, it's called highsec. W-space should be for something better.

As to the other parts of your post:
- a good portion of the evictions we (AHARM) do have been against groups that had the capability and numbers to fight us but wouldn't, and we've gotten fights after invading them - Ash alliance, Strag3s, Lightning Knights, 4U holdings. A further good portion have been against groups that should have had the numbers to fight us after invading but basically gaveup and started SDing.
- I can count on one hand the number of times we've had ~honourduels~, and they only happen when numbers are vastly inequal and the alternative is blueballs for everyone.
- The 'security blanket' thing is pretty lol. We dont evict people who fight us because if we did we probably wouldn't have anyone fun to fight.

edit: also, i agree with the honourable gentleman from No Holes Barred (sandslinger). There should be BRs here, not hate

Also also, i thought it was called 'leashing', like the thing that would keep sleepers attached to their structures instead of burning out to shoot you in the face

two step
May 2 2012, 04:31:25 PM
The issue that we have is that instead of leveraging their lower numbers to curbstomp a "blob", they're just not engaging and spinning in their POS. Without said "blob" putting a in a grossly disproportionate amount of effort(and very boring time) to kill their POS, there's not much else they can do.
The blob could bring less ships, you know, to encourage an actual fight. Bringing a disproportionate number of ships to try and get a fight out of people who you should assume are reticent to fight unless their history suggests otherwise seems like a pretty dumb strategy. Is it any wonder these people recoil when they see everything including the kitchen sink thrown at them?

Some people won't fight if they see one ship appear on dscan, others might fight if they think they can win. Few will fight if they already know they are heavily outnumbered and will have to rely on a perfect strategy and hope that there aren't any more hostiles on their way, waiting in the wings, or whatever.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Smuggo - people who have a really big issue with POSes in lower class wormholes are basically just people looking to curbstomp bears for no other reason than "because". They aren't looking for ~goodfights~ and they aren't overly concerned about the lack of a fight, since any fight they expect to take place would surely be a one-sided gank in any event. Shockingly people who don't want to fight are invariably bad at fighting and don't have Bhaals and triage Carriers to use on a whim.

The one thing that I think is wrong with the near invulnerability of lower class wormhole POSes is that it means other small groups can't come in and invade. I'm not sure the best way to balance it though.

Smuggo
May 2 2012, 04:52:16 PM
I'd just like to remind everyone that you can actually get rid of an unwanted POSs defences without firing a shot.

Varcaus
May 2 2012, 05:04:18 PM
I'd just like to remind everyone that you can actually get rid of an unwanted POSs defences without firing a shot.

Not unless who ever wants it up just to stay up to spite you. (unless spais)

Durzel
May 2 2012, 05:59:41 PM
The issue that we have is that instead of leveraging their lower numbers to curbstomp a "blob", they're just not engaging and spinning in their POS. Without said "blob" putting a in a grossly disproportionate amount of effort(and very boring time) to kill their POS, there's not much else they can do.
The blob could bring less ships, you know, to encourage an actual fight. Bringing a disproportionate number of ships to try and get a fight out of people who you should assume are reticent to fight unless their history suggests otherwise seems like a pretty dumb strategy. Is it any wonder these people recoil when they see everything including the kitchen sink thrown at them?

Some people won't fight if they see one ship appear on dscan, others might fight if they think they can win. Few will fight if they already know they are heavily outnumbered and will have to rely on a perfect strategy and hope that there aren't any more hostiles on their way, waiting in the wings, or whatever.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Smuggo - people who have a really big issue with POSes in lower class wormholes are basically just people looking to curbstomp bears for no other reason than "because". They aren't looking for ~goodfights~ and they aren't overly concerned about the lack of a fight, since any fight they expect to take place would surely be a one-sided gank in any event. Shockingly people who don't want to fight are invariably bad at fighting and don't have Bhaals and triage Carriers to use on a whim.

The one thing that I think is wrong with the near invulnerability of lower class wormhole POSes is that it means other small groups can't come in and invade. I'm not sure the best way to balance it though.
Yeah I agree there. To be honest it wouldn't be a terrible idea to limit the size of POS you can erect in lower class wormholes and/or even impose some kind of penalty for POS hitpoints in lower class holes to deal with the restrictions on ship types people can bring in. A large tower in a C1 is to all intents and purposes invulnerable unless you really have a problem with the owner, although the new T3 BCs make this a bit more bearable.

EntroX
May 2 2012, 06:38:35 PM
I'd just like to remind everyone that you can actually get rid of an unwanted POSs defences without firing a shot.

..go on

Smuggo
May 2 2012, 06:42:37 PM
I'd just like to remind everyone that you can actually get rid of an unwanted POSs defences without firing a shot.

..go on

Infiltrate target corp, gain trust, remove fuel from tower, wait until next tick, shield goes offline, shoot CHA/SMA/Labs, scoop goodies.

Have none of you ever played Eve before?

Durzel
May 2 2012, 07:36:14 PM
Sounds like a lot of hard work to be honest, but then I'm lazy. It's not like it's just infiltrating the corp, you've got to get roles too. Now.. if we're talking about bumping ships out of the shield I'm all in!

Wrack
May 2 2012, 07:40:36 PM
The reason for weakened POSes, or, ideally, a new small-gang target in W-space is not because we actually want to kill people's structures or take their stuff (although the latter is a fine goal, I don't think it's the topic of this conversation). The real goal is to promote ship-on-ship violence, to create an objective that's worth having, worth attacking, and worth defending. POSes are just convenient because they already exist, but a new objective could be made as well.

I'm thinking of something like an anchorable gas mining array with no reinforcement timer and something like 5mil HP (5-man gang can kill it in 30 minutes). With short anchor/unanchor timers so that you can deploy it in a ladar site when your play session starts, move it when the site goes dry, and pack it back up again at the end of the night. The presence of the gas mining array on dscan says "someone is around," so it acts as a lightning rod for traffic. Carebears will profit from it, risk-averse carebears will lose it, and pvpers will grief it for fights or just loot it if they can't get one.

And no, POCOs don't really work like this in w-space. The fact that it has a RF timer at all means it's not a small gang target, and because you have to leave it anchored 24/7, it wouldn't be appropriate to not have an RF timer.

Qui Shon
May 2 2012, 11:20:05 PM
you basically extend the grid to about 450 km and then just warp in all caps at once 2 dreads 2 carrier the sleeper bs will only go 250km from the spawn point then they hit a invisible wall and bounce against it so they never get in point or neut range and the dreads can just sit 150 to 200km from them picking them off with no worries at all as they have 0 transveral.

Oic. That does indeed sound like it could use a mechanic adjustment. Like 2000km "range" and frigs that kept a bit of transversal on approach.

But I still don't see the issue with it. Plus if their dreads have long range fits they're sitting ducks when you do catch them.


Dingduckding and we have a winner....Figured you all knew this......I guess not

Well yeah I've seen people use range setups before, but never been convinced it's actually faster. Safer, sure, but safety is overrated :p


there is no actual ingame method of catching them.
Looolllllll, sure there is. Plenty of them, and now that logoffski doesn't work anymore it's not even hard. I fitted up a large smartbomb + burst ECM cloaky proteus for the sole purpose of aggressing logoffski farmers before they could do their logoffski, but I went on break from Eve before I got to use it. Now I don't need it anymore, just get points on them before they warp out.


because eve is a sandbox, i should be able to kick whomever i don't like out of w-space, for whatever reason I want

And you can.
What you want and what some here are asking for is to do it without effort. You won't admit to that of course, but that's how it is.

Mesh M
May 3 2012, 12:56:37 AM
As someone who has been living with my alts in C3-4s just for farming and occassional fun I think one of the major reasons people don't engage random dudes turning up in their wh is simply one of assymetrical information. The aggressor normally has a pretty good idea what he is facing, number of active pilots, ships in space etc. The hometeam however has virtually no clue how much firepower they face until they intiate the fight. The couple of times i've sprung the trap to see what was coming it created lossmails with 10 hostiles on a single BC. Otoh the hometeam has the FF. Its a pretty easy choice really unless you are really really confident or have a very good idea what the other side can field. The kills we scored were pretty much mirroring that as well, mainly catching bears or collapsing ships.
Given that most BRs here start with: "we opened the hole and found XY running sites" that seems to be an experience pretty prevalent in W-Space. And frankly speaking, its not so much different in K-space either: either you manage to force a fight or hostiles tend to blueball. And tbh, there is no silver bullet solving that problem that people are generally playing it safe rather than go out and try it. Simply cause quite often not going out balls deep is rationally the right call. Even though it might be less fun.
As for Pos removal ops in w-space: people put some effort into creating their sandcastle, if you want to kick it over it should be some effort for you to do so. Even if structure shooting really sucks.

Ampoliros
May 3 2012, 01:01:25 AM
because eve is a sandbox, i should be able to kick whomever i don't like out of w-space, for whatever reason I want

And you can.
What you want and what some here are asking for is to do it without effort. You won't admit to that of course, but that's how it is.

bro, I would suggest you go back and reread my post and the post i was responding to, as they're only tangentially related to this issue of POSs that everyone else is going on about. I'm actually pretty happy with the mechanics as they stand right now, apart from maybe in c1s. v0v

Qui Shon
May 3 2012, 06:35:14 AM
because eve is a sandbox, i should be able to kick whomever i don't like out of w-space, for whatever reason I want

And you can.
What you want and what some here are asking for is to do it without effort. You won't admit to that of course, but that's how it is.

bro, I would suggest you go back and reread my post and the post i was responding to, as they're only tangentially related to this issue of POSs that everyone else is going on about. I'm actually pretty happy with the mechanics as they stand right now, apart from maybe in c1s. v0v

Okay I did and here's what I still see:

Artjay: Contribute or get out is a bs statement.
Amopliros: I should be able to kill anyone I want. What we mean by the "contribute" statement is we don't evict people that actually fight us.

Now the first part of your response I've gone over and apparently it turns out we agree there. Granted I've been away for over a year and may not have all the recent details, but the second statement is obviously not true, as seen in the middle part of Clarion Call 3 video.

Sandslinger
May 3 2012, 07:25:13 AM
because eve is a sandbox, i should be able to kick whomever i don't like out of w-space, for whatever reason I want

And you can.
What you want and what some here are asking for is to do it without effort. You won't admit to that of course, but that's how it is.

bro, I would suggest you go back and reread my post and the post i was responding to, as they're only tangentially related to this issue of POSs that everyone else is going on about. I'm actually pretty happy with the mechanics as they stand right now, apart from maybe in c1s. v0v

Okay I did and here's what I still see:

Artjay: Contribute or get out is a bs statement.
Amopliros: I should be able to kill anyone I want. What we mean by the "contribute" statement is we don't evict people that actually fight us.

Now the first part of your response I've gone over and apparently it turns out we agree there. Granted I've been away for over a year and may not have all the recent details, but the second statement is obviously not true, as seen in the middle part of Clarion Call 3 video.

Troll bait at this point......

oh and as for your loooool my cloaky T3 win.. pro:tip you don't need to siege dreads to get BS lvl damage from them. get enough and you will burn through sites in no time.

Seen nomad corps do this already.

In any case hope a mod comes and deletes the last 4 pages including my stupidly replying to you guys soon :lol:

LordsServant
May 3 2012, 07:48:18 AM
I think ppl are missing our (aharm, narwhals, etc etc) point here.

We DON'T want to kick over anyone's sandcastle. Wh space is the best isk in game, meaning if u've been in wh space for a while, you should easily have the isk to invest in a fleet for fighting. You can't tell us that you can't fly said ships when we see you with dreads/carriers running sleeper sites.

Giving us a fight (whether we win or lose) encourages us to NOT want to kick over your sandcastle, and even come help defend it when outside parties like AAA come and try to ruin the fun. All we want is for some of that isk you're whoring to be "reinvested" into making wspace a fun place to be in, is that too much to ask?

Qui Shon
May 3 2012, 07:51:10 AM
Lol, what kind of putz would farm sleepers with 1/8th the available dps :lol:
And if they do then let them, they'd make more money on nerfed hisec incursions probably.

In any case you can still catch and point them in site, sieged or not. It's just not as piss easy to catch them as you want it to be.

Sandslinger
May 3 2012, 08:14:22 AM
Lol, what kind of putz would farm sleepers with 1/8th the available dps :lol:
And if they do then let them, they'd make more money on nerfed hisec incursions probably.

In any case you can still catch and point them in site, sieged or not. It's just not as piss easy to catch them as you want it to be.


Think your reading comprehension might need a look at tbh It's not as "I want it to be"
I frankly don't give a shit, my point is that if people really want to not get caught. you can always do this in EvE. Or at the very least make it so rare that you will always keep on making isk.

In any case this discussion is booring the shit out of me. Been asking for an end to it for 3 pages now.

welcome back....

Durzel
May 3 2012, 08:15:11 AM
I think ppl are missing our (aharm, narwhals, etc etc) point here.

We DON'T want to kick over anyone's sandcastle. Wh space is the best isk in game, meaning if u've been in wh space for a while, you should easily have the isk to invest in a fleet for fighting. You can't tell us that you can't fly said ships when we see you with dreads/carriers running sleeper sites.

Giving us a fight (whether we win or lose) encourages us to NOT want to kick over your sandcastle, and even come help defend it when outside parties like AAA come and try to ruin the fun. All we want is for some of that isk you're whoring to be "reinvested" into making wspace a fun place to be in, is that too much to ask?
I know you probably weren't intending it to be as such but your latter point has serious slavery overtones. "We'll permit you to exist so long as you keep servicing us".

The grander point of "fun place to be in" is that it's obviously only fun from your perspective. Getting your shit pushed in by a force that is insurmountable in either raw numbers or ability/experience is not fun for people who just want to run sites. I get that some peoples attitude is basically that fights are the price of being in wormhole space, and I agree - I don't feel bad about ganking someone who wasn't paying sufficient attention to dscan/wormholes, but I don't think you can extrapolate that to a mentality whereby you feel you ganking them and permitting them to keep living in a wormhole is akin to a symbiotic relationship. It isn't, it's a master/slave relationship really.

I guess that's just the food chain though, not making any criticism of any individual or entity specifically.

ps. This conversation ought to be split off somewhere else. :(

Qui Shon
May 3 2012, 09:15:29 AM
Think your reading comprehension might need a look at tbh It's not as "I want it to be"

When you say "there is no actual ingame method of catching them" when there not only obviously exists methods, it's a hell of a lot EASIER now then it used to be, then that does imply you want it to be piss easy. Hell, not just logoffski nerf, but also corp bm's which are a lazy gankers dream, and a probing interface so easy that even the worst moron with shitty skills can get hits in no time at all.

Oh and I don't need the T3 now, it's back in Jita. I needed it when logoffski was possible. Now I can just use a fricken Helios to pin two dreads, if they are "leashing" sleepers without support.



welcome back....
Thanks, I hope to find a good corp soon and take up the "good fights", I mean traps, baits and ganks.

Also I might be imagining things but it seems a mod is already hard at work deleting my poasts on the last page so you might get your wish of having this interesting and illuminating discussion (;))wiped out.

Sandslinger
May 3 2012, 09:34:29 AM
Think your reading comprehension might need a look at tbh It's not as "I want it to be"

When you say "there is no actual ingame method of catching them" when there not only obviously exists methods, it's a hell of a lot EASIER now then it used to be, then that does imply you want it to be piss easy.



No it doesn't imply that, YOU are implying that's what I mean.... I was pointing it as a observation I have made of Eve in general.

Had you read/understood why i pointed it out you would have understood that I was trying to get people to stop arguing bout this useless crap last 4 pages seeing as carebears will be carebears wether they are nomads ot stationary. at least the stationary ones has POS that one can kill. the nomads can if done right be nigh uncatchable/unkillable by anything but people with shitloads of preparation work.

This is EvE tbh it's the only way it can be without nerfing everyone but the blob.

Assigning feelings/meanings/agendas onto other people's observations is a extremely bad habit by the way, and tends to be detrimental to having a proper debate on anything..

Seeing as I have gone full retard in this thread as well I can only pray for a Mod to help me clean my act up...

Qui Shon
May 3 2012, 10:40:31 AM
Think your reading comprehension might need a look at tbh It's not as "I want it to be"

When you say "there is no actual ingame method of catching them" when there not only obviously exists methods, it's a hell of a lot EASIER now then it used to be, then that does imply you want it to be piss easy.



No it doesn't imply that,

Yes it does. And in this post you prove it by finally amending your position from "impossible" to "shitloads of preparation work" which is entirely different. It is characterizing this "shitloads of work" as "impossible" which means that you did indeed imply you want no effort ganks, even if you didn't understand it yourself. Your standard of reasonable ::effort:: is so low, that to some of us it's equatable to "no effort".

Sandslinger
May 3 2012, 10:51:15 AM
Think your reading comprehension might need a look at tbh It's not as "I want it to be"

When you say "there is no actual ingame method of catching them" when there not only obviously exists methods, it's a hell of a lot EASIER now then it used to be, then that does imply you want it to be piss easy.



No it doesn't imply that,

Yes it does. And in this post you prove it by finally amending your position from "impossible" to "shitloads of preparation work" which is entirely different. It is characterizing this "shitloads of work" as "impossible" which means that you did indeed imply you want no effort ganks, even if you didn't understand it yourself. Your standard of reasonable ::effort:: is so low, that to some of us it's equatable to "no effort".


Thanks !

I was afraid I was going full retard alone, but you just ran past me at lightning speed :D.


(I would explain once again here how I was not asking for any change whatsoever only highlighting an example of a alternative with the hope of having the effect of stopping people arguing about something that WILL NOT ever change i'e carebears being able to carebear.
I would perhaps also explain that I didn't shift my position whatsoever, but your reading comprehension seems to be hard to get around you seem to read half my sentences and then go sperg so it's probably pointless in any case)

But I think if you retorted with the same retardation/utter failure to see my position yet again I would lose yet a little sliver of my last hope in FHC.

Qui Shon
May 3 2012, 01:58:09 PM
No problem, it's what I do best :)

But it's not my fault if you can't keep track of what you've said or if you can't say what you mean.
It is indeed pointless to argue with you, as you don't stand behind your words.

The Crushah
May 3 2012, 02:09:35 PM
I hate to interrupt your stimulating discussion but Durzel's corp has suffered a small theft. Damien Smith and I managed to make off with about 60-80b in ships and loot last night. What we couldnt carry, we did this:

http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235129
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235130
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235137
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235137

Sorry guys. Go ahead and continue your discussion...

Daneel Trevize
May 3 2012, 02:21:12 PM
But if you could fly 1 rev, why not strip the faction mods off of the other one first?

Smuggo
May 3 2012, 02:25:30 PM
I hate to interrupt your stimulating discussion but Durzel's corp has suffered a small theft. Damien Smith and I managed to make off with about 60-80b in ships and loot last night. What we couldnt carry, we did this:

http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235129
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235130
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235137
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235137

Sorry guys. Go ahead and continue your discussion...

lol

Durzel
May 3 2012, 02:29:31 PM
Yeah that was interesting to wake up to this morning, not gonna lie. It was well planned though, hats off to Damo.

The Crushah
May 3 2012, 02:36:32 PM
But if you could fly 1 rev, why not strip the faction mods off of the other one first?

No one could fly the Chimeras and the Orca I brought in was late to the game. We did get the goodies off the Rev I was flying though.

Ampoliros
May 3 2012, 02:38:06 PM
Okay I did and here's what I still see:

Artjay: Contribute or get out is a bs statement.
Amopliros: I should be able to kill anyone I want. What we mean by the "contribute" statement is we don't evict people that actually fight us.

Now the first part of your response I've gone over and apparently it turns out we agree there. Granted I've been away for over a year and may not have all the recent details, but the second statement is obviously not true, as seen in the middle part of Clarion Call 3 video.

Again, go back and reread my post - i said most of the evictions we do are against groups that don't fight us. We do have a few exceptions; firebird squadron got evicted because they dishonored a ransom, for example.

Qui Shon
May 3 2012, 02:40:37 PM
I hate to interrupt your stimulating discussion but Durzel's corp has suffered a small theft. Damien Smith and I managed to make off with about 60-80b in ships and loot last night. What we couldnt carry, we did this:

http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235129
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235130
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235137
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235137

Sorry guys. Go ahead and continue your discussion...

That's... a lot.
The people want screenshots of your loot!

Smuggo
May 3 2012, 02:58:21 PM
Okay I did and here's what I still see:

Artjay: Contribute or get out is a bs statement.
Amopliros: I should be able to kill anyone I want. What we mean by the "contribute" statement is we don't evict people that actually fight us.

Now the first part of your response I've gone over and apparently it turns out we agree there. Granted I've been away for over a year and may not have all the recent details, but the second statement is obviously not true, as seen in the middle part of Clarion Call 3 video.

Again, go back and reread my post - i said most of the evictions we do are against groups that don't fight us. We do have a few exceptions; firebird squadron got evicted because they dishonored a ransom, for example.

^^ The Goonswarm of WH space.

Durzel
May 3 2012, 03:02:05 PM
I hate to interrupt your stimulating discussion but Durzel's corp has suffered a small theft. Damien Smith and I managed to make off with about 60-80b in ships and loot last night. What we couldnt carry, we did this:

http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235129
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235130
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235137
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235137

Sorry guys. Go ahead and continue your discussion...

That's... a lot.
The people want screenshots of your loot!
Not downplaying this because Damien did play this well (certainly had me fooled) but 60-80b is ridiculous. I'm quite willing to be proven wrong with screenshots or other proof, but I know I won't be. I'd be surprised if it's more than 30b even including the stuff that was destroyed.

Off the top of my head I know we're missing ~10 or so site running Tengus, Nightmare, Vargur, Legion and quite possibly a variety of other T2 stuff too. Now, if any of the people in the corp have been fitting officer shit to this stuff then there'll be an entirely seperate discussion going on..

Even so, it's certainly worthy of this thread and I must admit I wasn't expecting it to be brought back on track with something that was so personally resonant :)

edit: Actually, forgot a missing (I think?) Phoenix and at least 2-3 Orcas so ~35b maybe? Won't know until later tonight.

Damien Smith
May 3 2012, 03:10:18 PM
In the interest of accuracy I'd just like to point out that any outside help that assisted were only invited to do so after the main haul had been evacced and after I'd been up all night and really had had enough of hauling ships. The total haul on my part was nowhere near 80b and I'm pretty sure that the amounts hauled out by the C&P channel crew was sub 10bil total. Probably closer to 5. I just figured I'd share the wealth and personally guided in any interested parties to pick over the leftover ships.

Credit to Crushah though for being able to pilot/destroy the capitals to allow me to loot stuff that I otherwise wouldn't have had the chance to.

Apologies if my post is a bit disjointed but I've not slept yet since yesterday morning and after kicking this op off at 3am when the last corpmate when to bed.

Edit: Didn't see your post Durz. I agree. I've got approx 40b give or take a few so 80 is laughable.

Edit2: I've been planning this op for about a month and it seems things were meant to be because not only did I have a lucky C140 incoming to allow me to get a couple of dreads out, the 3 outgoing C3 chains I used had all terminated within 5j of each other. The only downside was that I was originally going to hijack the pos and relaunch on an alt, then try and sell the pos, caps and system as a package but my fail anchoring skills didn't allow me to unanchor all the mods I needed to unanchor the pos. It was then that I figured I'd just get out what I can then invite the C&P crew in to pick over the scraps.

Also - Coincidence or what? (http://imgur.com/DVf89)

Durzel
May 3 2012, 03:14:00 PM
It's a good haul either way, and as said earlier no hard feelings from my point of view.

Qui Shon
May 3 2012, 03:14:49 PM
Okay I did and here's what I still see:

Artjay: Contribute or get out is a bs statement.
Amopliros: I should be able to kill anyone I want. What we mean by the "contribute" statement is we don't evict people that actually fight us.

Now the first part of your response I've gone over and apparently it turns out we agree there. Granted I've been away for over a year and may not have all the recent details, but the second statement is obviously not true, as seen in the middle part of Clarion Call 3 video.

Again, go back and reread my post - i said most of the evictions we do are against groups that don't fight us. We do have a few exceptions; firebird squadron got evicted because they dishonored a ransom, for example.

Here's what you did say:

We dont evict people who fight us because if we did we probably wouldn't have anyone fun to fight.


Now sure, sure, you probably meant most here too, just forgot to put it in... and no, I did not miss the link to Artjays comfort blanket idea either, nor do I buy his idea. In any case it doesn't matter. Artjay called the "contribute" sentiment silly, and it is. Killing carebears needs no more justification then killing the most ardent pvp:er. Conflict is what this game is mostly about.

Damien Smith
May 3 2012, 03:18:52 PM
It's a good haul either way, and as said earlier no hard feelings from my point of view.

That means a lot. I'm honestly surprised at how well you've taken this. Shorty too from what I saw before I lost forum access.

Edit: Here's a rough copy/paste from my spreadsheet: Link (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6837347/L0ot.pdf)

That's just the significant stuff I could be bothered calculating. There's god knows how much random T2 and named stuff. At least a few bil's worth.

Durzel
May 3 2012, 03:27:33 PM
I can't speak for everyone in corp obviously but I don't think there's any real bad blood. Shock obviously, funnily enough the person I thought would be most offended was actually the most pragmatic and said something pretty profound - "Sometimes a struggle is what you need to get the thirst to improve again, like we had at the start of all of this"

You're banned from the summer BBQ though, and I want my Cranberries album back, soz. :(

Damien Smith
May 3 2012, 03:36:57 PM
You're banned from the summer BBQ though, and I want my Cranberries album back, soz. :(

You're mean :(

I still plan on coming to FF next year so maybe we can all laugh about it then. Until then I've got shit to sell and things to buy :)

Durzel
May 3 2012, 03:41:09 PM
Now you're just rubbing it in! I always knew you were a meanie.*

* I didn't know

Damien Smith
May 3 2012, 03:42:21 PM
Now you're just rubbing it in!

I'm only playing. Love you really.

LordsServant
May 3 2012, 03:46:16 PM
Seems it's the day/week of the corp thefts in w-space.

A complete retard started giving ships to ppl sieging my alt WH when he logged into them sieging the tower.(I logged in just in time to see one of my orca's being boarded by a hostile and warping off the tower) - he has been kicked for being a complete and utter retard(the "invaders" fucked off when I got ready to bend them over - nbs, looking for weak targets not fights). I will be more careful when allowing friends and acquaintances access to WHs I have in order to make isk/experience the better part of eve(was technically a friend of a friend, so will prob limit it to friends only from now on).

My main corp (Pandora-Sphere) also got jacked for ~16b in bhaals, t3s, and other assorted ships(no capitals tho). Over a week or so apparently(ships were stolen from inactive ppl in corp - apparently at least one dude was/is on active military duty, can't be much more of a douche than to steal from someone serving their country) :S

The d-bag who did it has been kicked and blacklisted(theres a thread on C&P I don't have a link handy to atm, will edit and add later prob).

As to the whole "slavery" thing(fyi I will prob create a thread later about this discussion on politics/policies as it does seem to be derailing the current thread - which needs to be renamed to "Wormhole Space - Battle Reports and Discussion"), we don't care whether we get raped or not - we just want a fight. We (the top WH alliances/corps) don't always rape everything we come across, case in point - someone posted a BR of them wtfraping a Guillotine Therapy pvp fleet when the poster's group were all in PVE ships.

We want fights, winning or losing doesn't matter to us(unless we're on contract for something specific, in which case we do go full retard and wtfrape everything and give less fucks about "good fights" as opposed to "satisfy the client").

Ampoliros
May 3 2012, 04:11:44 PM
^^ The Goonswarm of WH space.

That's a pretty sick burn right there. If you'd like to clarify and elaborate on the number of ways we are like goonswarm (i'm running on the assumption that it's because we have a $10 entry fee and overuse the word 'pubbie'), i might be enticed to counter-insult you.


Here's what you did say:

We dont evict people who fight us because if we did we probably wouldn't have anyone fun to fight.


Now sure, sure, you probably meant most here too, just forgot to put it in... and no, I did not miss the link to Artjays comfort blanket idea either, nor do I buy his idea. In any case it doesn't matter. Artjay called the "contribute" sentiment silly, and it is. Killing carebears needs no more justification then killing the most ardent pvp:er. Conflict is what this game is mostly about.

Yeah, in context i'm pretty sure i mentioned twice elsewhere in that post that most of our evictions worked that way, but you're right that i left it out of there. Anyhow, I've made my points already, as mentioned we've been shitting up the thread for too long so i'm just gonna drop it and hope we get back to BRs. ;)

The Crushah
May 3 2012, 04:35:15 PM
Sorry, was in a meeting and couldnt keep up with the thread.

This was Damien's operation from start to finish. I was merely the heavy and I overestimated the haul by assuming there were more pimp T3 ships than there were. I came in to help Damien move ships that he couldnt move or didnt have the time to plus kill caps. For my efforts I pulled down ~5 billion, maybe a little more. I got about 15 T2 ships, 3 Rokhs, and as much loot and random shit that I could cram into my alts Orca.

Kudos to Damien for having the patience to pull this heist off and thanks for letting us ebil C&P dwellers in on the haul.

Artjay
May 3 2012, 08:57:15 PM
I can't speak for everyone in corp obviously but I don't think there's any real bad blood. Shock obviously, funnily enough the person I thought would be most offended was actually the most pragmatic and said something pretty profound - "Sometimes a struggle is what you need to get the thirst to improve again, like we had at the start of all of this"

You're banned from the summer BBQ though, and I want my Cranberries album back, soz. :(

Cranberries? C'mon Damien - fuck the guy over in game fair enough, but make sure you do him a favour and burn that shit rather than give it back to him.

Liptonez
May 3 2012, 09:14:39 PM
My main corp (Pandora-Sphere) also got jacked for ~16b in bhaals, t3s, and other assorted ships(no capitals tho). Over a week or so apparently(ships were stolen from inactive ppl in corp - apparently at least one dude was/is on active military duty, can't be much more of a douche than to steal from someone serving their country) :S

No spaceship honoure. :emo: :cut:

I'd also like to call the "contribute or leave" stuff bullshit. If it was like that, we should have been invaded and kicked by now. There's nothing wrong with not choosing to fight R&K and K162. If you aren't with one of the top five WH alliances, you'll just get utterly destroyed by them. The ones who actually kill those alliances just manage to outblob them, like when they got killed by Temnava. Trying to fight in a Pulsar (which also is the home system of the targets) in armor ships, what could possibly go wrong? Other than that I don't really remember GT dying that much.

Albeit being #1 alliance according to that fancy w-space table, opening into K162 or R&K to us usually means collapsing ASAP. Our two and a half corps are in their very own holes, so there's no way in hell to match either those alliances in numbers. Not many alliances can. And by this I do not mean mean they blob, they just fly with perfect setups that you shouldn't run into in some half-assed defense fleet.
They kind of have the PL problem. They fly great setups, destroy people over and over by picking their own fights, make a great name and then no one wants to fight them any more, even though they are far from unbeatable.

In any case, I rather have wormholes full of carebears than empty holes or only hardcore PVPers in them.

G0hme
May 4 2012, 04:06:19 PM
In some ways I still like these small corps isk farming corporations in W-space, and I fail to see why you would want to get rid of them. Yes I has become hard to catch siterunning fleets that has all incoming holes picketed and are watching for new signatures like any good paranoid eve-player should. But you will always be able to catch those fleets (if only a couple) that would just have started a new siege/triage cycle and hopefully you will be able to escalate to a bigger fight, if not, you will still see a capital ship explode. (Now give SD-Killmails CCP). Though if you decide to evict every single entity that does not give you a fight, you're just making W-space more of a wasteland than it sometimes seems to be. There is no logic behind those kind of evictions that can be considered reasonable if your goal is to get more fights. One could be tempted to throw out a "Pick on someone your own size" but that wouldnt suit the W-space wildlands. I think its naive to think that one will change their mindset when being "forced" to fight on others term or get evicted. It just seems silly to me that some are arguing that it would.

However kicking out AAA who boldly stated they would own all the C5-C3s was fun.

Daneel Trevize
May 4 2012, 11:52:48 PM
Hello http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13274008

Ash2k7
May 5 2012, 12:03:39 AM
I'd also like to call the "contribute or leave" stuff bullshit. If it was like that, we should have been invaded and kicked by now. There's nothing wrong with not choosing to fight R&K and K162. If you aren't with one of the top five WH alliances, you'll just get utterly destroyed by them. The ones who actually kill those alliances just manage to outblob them, like when they got killed by Temnava. Trying to fight in a Pulsar (which also is the home system of the targets) in armor ships, what could possibly go wrong? Other than that I don't really remember GT dying that much.

...

In any case, I rather have wormholes full of carebears than empty holes or only hardcore PVPers in them.
From what I remember, the point is to discourage POS hugging shit and the tactics and attitudes that lead to many 0.0 alliances having all their players dock up and spin in station while any hostiles are within 18 jumps. It's shit and boring for everyone.

So "contribute or leave" means that while you may die if you fight, you surely WILL die (and lose all your shit) if you turtle consistently. As most any individual, corp, or alliance can tell you, by fighting (and, yes, dying) you get better at EVE. You refine tactics, setups, and reflexes. With mass limits and effects, small groups with situational awareness can easily screw with big groups.

Most roams are set up with generally useful setups (typically armor fleets) that don't exactly do well in certain systems. Roams also don't know the state of any holes (this problem is even worse with recent changes) so their aggression can be used against them with judicious mass transfer. Split fleets that have lost key elements are very easy to deal with.

"Perfect" setups require co-ordination and the right mix of ships - 2 faction or officer fit Bhaals are a deadly threat, but 1 which has minimal support is a really nice KB ornament. Perfect setups are also loot pinatas. When I was in AHARM the standard PVE tengu was stupidly costly (back when you could solo C4s) and the PVP fits were almost as nice.

I think it's a good ethos and helps prevent w-space from being the same stale crap that so much of k-space became. Take advantage of the resources, but don't just milk isk, make it a fun and very different part of the game.

Qui Shon
May 5 2012, 07:08:29 AM
But if you could fly 1 rev, why not strip the faction mods off of the other one first?

Perhaps the real answer is because you then gain ownership of it and will have no km to show. While loot is nice, everybody wants km's too.

Daneel Trevize
May 5 2012, 09:30:10 AM
Wouldn't you just get a friendly fire lossmail? It's not like it's been ejected from the hanger and not boarded since.
Anyway, again wtf is going on here
Hello http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13274008

LordsServant
May 5 2012, 11:36:41 AM
Wouldn't you just get a friendly fire lossmail? It's not like it's been ejected from the hanger and not boarded since.
Anyway, again wtf is going on here
Hello http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13274008

Looks like it took place in a c2 (very similar to my alt c2 I'm trying to sell). My guess is one side or the other got called in to defend/attack it. Interesting fight for such a low-class WH tho.

Merrizo
May 5 2012, 01:01:42 PM
Transmission Lost was looking to evict that C2's occupants. LOST asked TALUN to provide backup and hired some mercs. Unfortunately a spai happened and as such Exhale. and Starbridge were ready to help defend the system. The main error on LOST's side was ignoring the hostile intel factor and going in with a half T3 and less than half a POS bashing fleet, cause the entrance collapsed (as expected) halfway through the battleships jumping in. As you can imagine, Sentry BS that were to be used versus the dickstar, aren't much good versus T3s with logi support. Given that it was known we had a spai, fleet shoulda moved in with a full T3+logi setup, established system dominance first and only then gradually switched out pilots into pos stomping ships.

Qui Shon
May 5 2012, 02:16:05 PM
Wouldn't you just get a friendly fire lossmail? It's not like it's been ejected from the hanger and not boarded since.

Yes, and who wants that?
KM's (on other people) are much nicer, and that's what they got.


Anyway, again wtf is going on here
Hello http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13274008

More blobbery and destruction of the last bastion of non-blob, w-space.

They should make a new mechanic, more then 50 pilots in a system at once, and no wormholes will spawn for a week. 200 pilots, a month. 500 pilots, ever again. :obama:


I think I'll leave you guys alone for a while in this thread now, before Grarr permabans me.

Nathan Jameson
May 5 2012, 02:35:38 PM
More blobbery and destruction of the last bastion of non-blob, w-space.

Only if you ignore the fact that the wormhole collapse cut our side's fleet in half. We had 100+ in fleet at one point, but only 60 made it inside, meaning the fleets were of equal size. Just not equally gunned.

Sadly Talocan was the part left outside, and we didn't get to take part in the massacre fun. :(

Wrack
May 5 2012, 03:38:44 PM
More blobbery and destruction of the last bastion of non-blob, w-space.

They should make a new mechanic, more then 50 pilots in a system at once, and no wormholes will spawn for a week. 200 pilots, a month. 500 pilots, ever again. :obama:

I think I'll leave you guys alone for a while in this thread now, before Grarr permabans me.

The attacking fleet was merely of the size necessary to engage a dickstar in a C2, which can permajam 30 ships. The defending fleet size was merely what was necessary to repel the attacking fleet. The wormhole did its job and cut a fleet in half. Something was worth fighting for, so people turned out to fight for it, and had a pitched 30 minute battle, at roughly even numbers, with zero capitals. Metagaming took place and the side that was better prepared won. An invasion attempt took place and didn't result in blueballs followed by a self-destruct orgy, which is rare.

This is not some harbinger of days to come in which no fleet is smaller than 40. This is an edge-case, the far tail of the bell curve. This is exactly how EVE is supposed to happen.

Qui Shon
May 5 2012, 04:27:50 PM
Okay just one more post, for a clarification:

I wasn't accusing any one side of blobbing, but all sides, the practice and phenomena itself. Apologies if I miscommunicated that.

This is the 2nd edge case in a month in this thread....

I shall try to be reassured by Wrack's and others continued insistence of non-ruined w-space, and pour my bile and hatred on any w-fleet larger then 15 ships somewhere else.

Nathan Jameson
May 5 2012, 05:14:26 PM
This is the 2nd edge case in a month in this thread....

If it's any solace, it's the same groups popping up on each of these BR's...the "greats" of wormhole space. They are themselves the edge case. For 2498 systems, there's plenty of room to live without being involved in a fight like this.

Casparas
May 6 2012, 01:57:59 PM
BR of this fight: http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?brid=6896

Can be found here: http://exhale.lt/forum/index.php?topic=354.0

xanral
May 6 2012, 06:17:16 PM
This is from a battle that's a bit old and small scale but I wanted to wait till I had the video available and with some info on what was happening in it before posting about it.

The background was that we connected to a C1 of some enemies of ours and baited and blew up a gang of theirs. We stuck a crucifier scan alt in system and later a manticore. We ganked a few of them over the week and so one corp decided to leave the WH.

I decided to interrupt their move out and brought my Ishtar over knowing they had a 2 myrms, brutix, guardian, and either several tengus or nighthawks at their disposal. You can scroll down and just watch the linked video if you want as this point in the story.

I tried for half an hour to get them to fight me off the WH and engaged a ceptor and some other stuff before the fight featured, but they wanted to fight on the HS WH no matter what the odds and the fact that they knew the HS was clear of backup for me. So I engaged them with 1 of the tengus and my ishtar under timer. Sadly it had enough eHP to tank me and jump out about 20 seconds before death and we started the HS circle jerk after that.

I eventually jump out and notice the WH is crit so I call in two corp mates in hurricanes to give me enough mass to hopefully close it. They have to travel 30 jumps but we all make it there and jump in.

Pop goes the WH and we engage what's left of the forces there:
http://www.ajoheavyind.com/edk/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1023

I know we didn't have boosts and pretty sure the other side did not either so what you see is what you get. Also sorry for the chat window and low resolution on it, I have a new wide screen monitor now so future stuff should be better.
Video Link (its part of my latest PvP video, stop when it shows the Talos as you've gone too far):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SJVSmB1buE&hd=1&t=3m55s

Daneel Trevize
May 6 2012, 06:34:36 PM
I was indeed questioning your sanity fighting on highsec holes without bumps, 90% webs, or something unexpectedly high mass to shove through. :p

Oh and Casparas failed to mention there's FRAPS of that fight with that BR.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o52K0QgG0XY

Korenchkin
May 8 2012, 09:48:19 AM
I hate to interrupt your stimulating discussion but Durzel's corp has suffered a small theft. Damien Smith and I managed to make off with about 60-80b in ships and loot last night. What we couldnt carry, we did this:

http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235129
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235130
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235137
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=235137

Sorry guys. Go ahead and continue your discussion...

Wow did you spend a lot of time planning this audacious heist crusher?

Damien Smith
May 8 2012, 12:02:41 PM
Wow did you spend a lot of time planning this audacious heist crusher?

I know right. I wish he'd have told me about it instead of letting me do all the work and then jumping in at the end to pew a couple of caps...

Omen Nihilo
May 11 2012, 02:26:31 AM
My corp loves to bring a fight to nullsec, but the other day we had one brought to our doorstep. I know the battle wasn't actually in w-space, but it took place on a wormhole so it counts. 8-)

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13315671 - because of reshipping the sides look even, but they outnumbered us at least 3:1.

Just gonna post a quick writeup from someone else on our forums; I think he sums it up nicely:


are you talking bout the massacre at 4-q
we had 3 rounds tbh

round 1
first we took a 11 man proper kitting gang against a 23 man mostly bc fleet (we had 2 logies and even rapier / lachesis + boosts)
boris was ordered to die so that the enemy gang would show up on the kill board :twisted:

round 2
they brought in a even bigger gang and dropped it on the wh on zero
we reshipped to armor goodness and engaged then
we killed stuff ,they cynoed in 7 carriers, we ran

round 3
carriers warped off , enemy fleet still camped the wh
we waited out our timers and went for another round ...
again stuff died and they disengaged
we looted everyone got a victory beer
again we tried to sacrifice boris but for some reason he wouldnt die making the killboard not as it supposed to be :lol:

LordsServant
May 11 2012, 06:47:42 PM
My corp loves to bring a fight to nullsec, but the other day we had one brought to our doorstep. I know the battle wasn't actually in w-space, but it took place on a wormhole so it counts. 8-)

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13315671 - because of reshipping the sides look even, but they outnumbered us at least 3:1.

Just gonna post a quick writeup from someone else on our forums; I think he sums it up nicely:


are you talking bout the massacre at 4-q
we had 3 rounds tbh

round 1
first we took a 11 man proper kitting gang against a 23 man mostly bc fleet (we had 2 logies and even rapier / lachesis + boosts)
boris was ordered to die so that the enemy gang would show up on the kill board :twisted:

round 2
they brought in a even bigger gang and dropped it on the wh on zero
we reshipped to armor goodness and engaged then
we killed stuff ,they cynoed in 7 carriers, we ran

round 3
carriers warped off , enemy fleet still camped the wh
we waited out our timers and went for another round ...
again stuff died and they disengaged
we looted everyone got a victory beer
again we tried to sacrifice boris but for some reason he wouldnt die making the killboard not as it supposed to be :lol:


Poor, poor, boris. :(

I was looking at that BR and the first thing that popped into mind was "lol lookit dat scrub in the shield oracle surrounded by all dat armor goodness," but then I read how u ordered him to sacrifice himself :P

There's always that one guy who EVERYONE looks at when u need bait/suicide tackle or w/e ;)

Liptonez
May 11 2012, 09:43:04 PM
Why would you sacrifice someone if you killed every single one of them anyway. lol Looks very nice.

Omen Nihilo
May 11 2012, 09:53:29 PM
More of a joke since Boris always seems to get primaried. We'd like to think he died for a good cause. :lol:

Omen Nihilo
May 11 2012, 10:56:13 PM
Looks like AHARM & Co. are doing another eviction?
http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12811

Also, 15 Dreads :shock:

Rengas
May 12 2012, 07:15:28 AM
Looks like AHARM & Co. are doing another eviction?
http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12811

Probably just a 'training op' like the one Starbridge & Co. had.

Qui Shon
May 12 2012, 12:23:16 PM
Looks like AHARM & Co. are doing another eviction?
http://dontshootx.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12811

Also, 15 Dreads :shock:

15 dreads, to kill ratters, it seems like....

Maybe there's a whole bunch of pos's to come?

Durzel
May 13 2012, 05:06:32 PM
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13358850

Not really sure how blueing up "randomly" (seems to happen pretty often even post-AAA?) with other monster WH corps encourages fighting tbh. I heard that the victims were (are?) self destructing caps and I'm not remotely surprised.

crysalis
May 14 2012, 11:36:50 AM
Robot Monster > 12:30:39 Notify Thanatos belonging to Gefestion self-destructs.
Robot Monster > that's about all the pvp we're getting
Fatyn > TPT white flag?
crazyfists > yeah
Fatyn > I hate sieges
Cara Parker > 70 mans fleet with 20 caps vs not more 10, you're so cool, what are you waiting?
Robot Monster > last time we hit one of their systems they brought 20 dreads and 200 people... we brought what we needed to beat that, pretty simple really
crazyfists > 70 man fleet with 20 caps expecting the russian block 200man tengu fleet
crazyfists > i think its a reasonable amount to be honest
Cara Parker > block? there is no block
crazyfists > these guys obviously just dont have the right relations with the right people
Robot Monster > last time we invaded, they brought every russian speaking alliance in wh space... think what you like
Cara Parker > crazy what you mean?
Cara Parker > which relations they need to have?
garrisson > sexual relations
Cara Parker > aha i see
garrisson > no idea really
crazyfists > we predicted that they would call in 90% of the russain speaking groups. Aparently they dont have either good enough relations with them. Or the guys that we predicted to come help decided not to come
crazyfists > Either way, our fleet is completely justified
Fatyn > did you have a bit of a dread blap on friday?
Cara Parker > if you want fight why you camped holes?
crazyfists > camped holes? we have 10 t3's waiting on average. Simply to stop the locals getting any stuff out.
crazyfists > If the 200 man tengu fleet was coming in, they would have no problem pushing through 10 t3's
Robot Monster > if they evac everything they have nothing to fight for
crazyfists > the entire point to this operation was to get a fight. The loot is just an added bonus
Bane Nucleus > you hope for a fight, but prepare for people to run
Cara Parker > lol
crazyfists > 11:58:42 Notify Mistress Miner has initiated self-destruct of their Revelation, it will explode in 120 seconds.
Bane Nucleus > ^
Bane Nucleus > that happens 90& of the time
Cara Parker > 20 caps with 50pilots support - maybe you need to go at nullsec with these fleet to claim some system
Bane Nucleus > why are you angry?
crazyfists > i dont think you get the point still
crazyfists > that fleet was to fight 200
Cara Parker > i understand your point
Cara Parker > 200? what a number& where you get it?
Bane Nucleus > 200 pilots has been rather common lately in wh space
Cara Parker > what?
crazyfists > last time we hit a PO2 system, temnava, W-space, and co came with 200man tengu fleet
Cara Parker > where you see it?
Dievas > on the overview
Bane Nucleus > lol
Cara Parker > lol
crazyfists > 12:46:33 Notify Mistress Miner has initiated self-destruct of their Cheetah, it will explode in 120 seconds.
crazyfists > srsly?
Dievas > officer cheetah
Cara Parker > you have enough ships)) what you want?)))
Fatyn > you need to go out to nullsec if you want fights that big imo
crazyfists > i want them to bring a fight, simple
Cara Parker > we? or aharm with pets?
Fatyn > aharm
Cara Parker > aah
crazyfists > aharm pets are actually in an alliance called BHARM btw
Cara Parker > lol

ok
lets see

aharm+nhb+pizza+frozen arctic start invasion on TPT c6 system with about 20 caps (15-16 dreads with 3-4 carriers) and minimum 50-60 man fleet of supports (was see about 15 guardians)
day early some anonymous guy says to TPT about eviction and we thinking its a planned by aharm

BUT
russian community never showed more than 140 man fleet who were on a joint operation against the Aquil system.
where aharms saw a group of 200 people?
we do not know.
i know TPT guys, they dont kill sleepers everyday and they search some pvp always - @wh @nullsec and @lowsec

why no one came to help?
because holes are camped, every ship what came out from posfield was under heavy fire with many logistics
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/2442/capturebty.png
and no one knew how to deal with 20 caps at ONE hole
can you imagine how to assemble 50 people from different alliances with different TZ?
and how about 100 or 150?
its so f***** difficult

poses are killed
custom office too
many ships of TPT was sd's

about invasion at PO2 system: there were about 80 man fleet with 9 dreads against aharms

thats all i know

i think the findings will make themselves

ps
sorry about my bad english and fly safe 0/

Daneel Trevize
May 14 2012, 12:17:50 PM
Why would you even want to fight a 200 Tengu blob :facepalm:

corbex
May 14 2012, 12:44:55 PM
The last time we hit a small power of two system we had 144 sub caps come in plus 16 cap s (as well as the ships in system which was 4 caps at least), these were only the guys that i saw in that system who i managed to add to contacts so could well have beenmore i missed over that weekend. I probably still have all these contact on one of my characters so could list them if you really wanted.


and no one knew how to deal with 20 caps at ONE hole

it simply wouldnt have been at the one wh as most the people who came in last time just collasped in from there home system in to us, which even with us being on the ball this time would have been very hard for us to stop.

Problem is people assume certain stuff will happen.

150 peopel hit aquila others come defend, nato is born and dies 4 or 5 days later once aquila is saved and a hostile system is hit straight after, everyone is rest at this point.

We hit power of two on our own (4 dreads 12 sub caps) russians assume its a nato op (which it isnt) so all come to help. we just dont have the numbers to fight that force and power of two is saved.

We mount a op to hit true power team, but we now assume same group will come help save these people so we plan for it and bring numbers that could fight the same fleet we saw in the power of two system.

One thing i dont really like (and think its shared by alot of others) is its not a nato v russians, nato literally was only together for a few days then hasnt been around since, i'm not sure what you would call the form up of everyone against aaa (WH coalition i guess) but that basically only lasted for a few days and everyone was reset. There have been a few smaller team ups i know exhale stardige teamed up recently, we teamed up with w space and starbridge a couple weeks ago to help defend a system and kill a small tower (which was cool never been on same side as a tengu fleet like that before) then reset the same day once we were out of that wh. Its not us v russians, these guys got hit as we consider them farmers.

Yep the fleet does look pretty over kill for tpt, but as said we expected much bigger forces chain collasping in.

We attually had a fair few other groups ask to come and help but we said no,

crysalis
May 14 2012, 02:39:37 PM
The last time we hit a small power of two system we had 144 sub caps come in plus 16 cap s (as well as the ships in system which was 4 caps at least), these were only the guys that i saw in that system who i managed to add to contacts so could well have beenmore i missed over that weekend. I probably still have all these contact on one of my characters so could list them if you really wanted.
yea
ok
i and many others understand your point
you want a big fight
maybe it would be some EPIC WH War
but i have one questions: are you really waiting 200 tengus blob?
why?
you should know how difficult to bring these fleets at wormholes



a nato v russians
no one named this invasion "nato vs russians"
i think its a aqil fiction
;)


We attually had a fair few other groups ask to come and help but we said no,
lol
its amazing, guys
really
http://failheap-challenge.com/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

Grarr Dexx
May 14 2012, 04:30:13 PM
Play nice.

XenosisReaper
May 14 2012, 11:58:23 PM
I swear to god the WH thread is the most interesting politics thread in this subforum

Also lolNato vs Russians, you guys have the coolest team names.

LordsServant
May 15 2012, 01:05:06 AM
I swear to god the WH thread is the most interesting politics thread in this subforum

Also lolNato vs Russians, you guys have the coolest team names.

Welcome to why I gave up my supercaps and the blobs of 0.0 and joined the awesomeness that is WH space....

Ampoliros
May 15 2012, 06:40:04 AM
Yeah, to reiterate the background a bit - as corb mentioned, the last time we hit a very small system associated with these guys in feb with an extremely reasonable force (maybe a couple dozen pilots across EU/US TZs, 3-5 caps?, all AHARM), they called in a hundred+ subcaps and another dozen capitals from most of the russian-speaking wspace alliances and a few nullsec guys as well. Considering that and the fair number of assets they had in system already, we didn't really hold back on deployment.


Why would you even want to fight a 200 Tengu blob :facepalm:

I'm sorry, i don't understand the question. Why wouldn't you?

Daneel Trevize
May 15 2012, 08:09:26 AM
Because can't they alpha most sub-BS/sub-caps? I've seen <100 shitfit drakes alpha a decent fit Maelstrom. Thus it becomes a terrible russian roulette lack of skill whether you die or not? Or do pimped, ganglinked T3s & logis do ok?

Seamus
May 15 2012, 11:48:58 AM
just tank kinetic if you know thats what theyre flying.

LordsServant
May 15 2012, 11:56:18 AM
Because can't they alpha most sub-BS/sub-caps? I've seen <100 shitfit drakes alpha a decent fit Maelstrom. Thus it becomes a terrible russian roulette lack of skill whether you die or not? Or do pimped, ganglinked T3s & logis do ok?

There's no such thing as a "decent fit Maelstrom" buffer fit. The only reason maelstroms work in fleets is because there's so many of them. They lack any sort of real EHP, and maelstrom fleets get slaughted in 1:1 situations vs any half decent fleet comp(drakes not included as drakes are a shit fleet comp).

Proper buffer fleet ships (abaddons, rokhs, t3s, commandships) will shrug off the "alpha" and keep on trucking without issue, especially when faction+ fit under bonuses, which is much more common in w-space as you don't have to worry about facing off vs 400+ blobs, which is where things can start to alpha you regardless of your fitting.

Daneel Trevize
May 15 2012, 12:23:39 PM
We are talking about 200 tengu volleys here. That really won't alpha subcaps? Even with a 2k volley each that's 400k ehp before resists. A 6 launcher, 3BCU T2 fits seems to do nearer 2.2k for kinetic with faction ammo. I would have thought that was sufficient.

Starscream26
May 15 2012, 01:05:09 PM
We are talking about 200 tengu volleys here. That really won't alpha subcaps? Even with a 2k volley each that's 400k ehp before resists. A 6 launcher, 3BCU T2 fits seems to do nearer 2.2k for kinetic with faction ammo. I would have thought that was sufficient.

I had to register just to comment on this.

400k ehp before resists. Even if, going into a fight with an army of Tengu's, the ship they're shooting at only has 80 percent kin resist(which is retardedly low if you're going to fight a massive tengu blob), that translates into something like 80k ehp worth of actual damage, then its further mitigated by sig radius and velocity, and then again by actual co-ordination of the pilots firing (good luck getting a 200 man tengu blob to fire at the exact same time, or even for all of them to shoot the same guy).

Thats going to translate into a not exactly terrifying number. I'd reckon something like 50k ehp on smaller ships, and 70k or so on battleships.

I can't think of a battleship that would be alpha'd by 70k ehp worth of damage(excepting squishy snipe fits or weird active tanks), and I can't think of any t3 that would be alpha'd by 50k... well, except some loki fits and such.

A 200 man tengu blob is two things. Vulnerable because they do almost entirely kinetic damage, and fun to shoot at because they have nice huge sigs if they're buffer fit.

Sandslinger
May 15 2012, 01:24:40 PM
Especially fun if you've took the time to ensure you would have 840K volley every 5 seconds. 8-)

Yeah we did the maths before hand and figured we could survive it easy especially as every sub cap was intentionally overtanked

Daneel Trevize
May 15 2012, 01:27:08 PM
200 doing kinetic is 150 doing any other type ;) And I assumed they could manage one or two painters & webs in their fleet.

But ok, fair enough, seems I wasn't factoring in resists correctly. Continue to mock HM users. :D

two step
May 15 2012, 02:03:29 PM
We are talking about 200 tengu volleys here. That really won't alpha subcaps? Even with a 2k volley each that's 400k ehp before resists. A 6 launcher, 3BCU T2 fits seems to do nearer 2.2k for kinetic with faction ammo. I would have thought that was sufficient.

I had to register just to comment on this.

400k ehp before resists. Even if, going into a fight with an army of Tengu's, the ship they're shooting at only has 80 percent kin resist(which is retardedly low if you're going to fight a massive tengu blob), that translates into something like 80k ehp worth of actual damage, then its further mitigated by sig radius and velocity, and then again by actual co-ordination of the pilots firing (good luck getting a 200 man tengu blob to fire at the exact same time, or even for all of them to shoot the same guy).

Thats going to translate into a not exactly terrifying number. I'd reckon something like 50k ehp on smaller ships, and 70k or so on battleships.

I can't think of a battleship that would be alpha'd by 70k ehp worth of damage(excepting squishy snipe fits or weird active tanks), and I can't think of any t3 that would be alpha'd by 50k... well, except some loki fits and such.

A 200 man tengu blob is two things. Vulnerable because they do almost entirely kinetic damage, and fun to shoot at because they have nice huge sigs if they're buffer fit.

Uh, that isn't the way EHP works. 400K damage * .2 = 80K raw damage. Of course, you should have much higher resists, and your comments on speed and sig radius are correct, which is why we were in armor T3s. You also need to remember that some of the tengus would be jammed/damped, and we didn't really expect 200, last time it was closer to 150. That makes it much more survivable, especially if you know you are fighting tengus and overtank your kin resists.

A giant blob of high sig radius tengus are also hilariously vulnerable to dreads, who have the ability to tank them for plenty of time...

Starscream26
May 15 2012, 02:12:20 PM
We are talking about 200 tengu volleys here. That really won't alpha subcaps? Even with a 2k volley each that's 400k ehp before resists. A 6 launcher, 3BCU T2 fits seems to do nearer 2.2k for kinetic with faction ammo. I would have thought that was sufficient.

I had to register just to comment on this.

400k ehp before resists. Even if, going into a fight with an army of Tengu's, the ship they're shooting at only has 80 percent kin resist(which is retardedly low if you're going to fight a massive tengu blob), that translates into something like 80k ehp worth of actual damage, then its further mitigated by sig radius and velocity, and then again by actual co-ordination of the pilots firing (good luck getting a 200 man tengu blob to fire at the exact same time, or even for all of them to shoot the same guy).

Thats going to translate into a not exactly terrifying number. I'd reckon something like 50k ehp on smaller ships, and 70k or so on battleships.

I can't think of a battleship that would be alpha'd by 70k ehp worth of damage(excepting squishy snipe fits or weird active tanks), and I can't think of any t3 that would be alpha'd by 50k... well, except some loki fits and such.

A 200 man tengu blob is two things. Vulnerable because they do almost entirely kinetic damage, and fun to shoot at because they have nice huge sigs if they're buffer fit.

Uh, that isn't the way EHP works. 400K damage * .2 = 80K raw damage. Of course, you should have much higher resists, and your comments on speed and sig radius are correct, which is why we were in armor T3s. You also need to remember that some of the tengus would be jammed/damped, and we didn't really expect 200, last time it was closer to 150. That makes it much more survivable, especially if you know you are fighting tengus and overtank your kin resists.

A giant blob of high sig radius tengus are also hilariously vulnerable to dreads, who have the ability to tank them for plenty of time...

Exactly what is wrong about what I said? obviously 20 percent of 400k is 80, but then you lose more damage to sig, incompetence and velocity, which brings it down to (VERY roughly) 50k on t3's and about 70k on battleships.

Or have I missed something?

But yes, damps and such would affect it even more.

Brinkken
May 15 2012, 02:12:27 PM
We are talking about 200 tengu volleys here. That really won't alpha subcaps? Even with a 2k volley each that's 400k ehp before resists. A 6 launcher, 3BCU T2 fits seems to do nearer 2.2k for kinetic with faction ammo. I would have thought that was sufficient.

I had to register just to comment on this.

400k ehp before resists. Even if, going into a fight with an army of Tengu's, the ship they're shooting at only has 80 percent kin resist(which is retardedly low if you're going to fight a massive tengu blob), that translates into something like 80k ehp worth of actual damage, then its further mitigated by sig radius and velocity, and then again by actual co-ordination of the pilots firing (good luck getting a 200 man tengu blob to fire at the exact same time, or even for all of them to shoot the same guy).

Thats going to translate into a not exactly terrifying number. I'd reckon something like 50k ehp on smaller ships, and 70k or so on battleships.

I can't think of a battleship that would be alpha'd by 70k ehp worth of damage(excepting squishy snipe fits or weird active tanks), and I can't think of any t3 that would be alpha'd by 50k... well, except some loki fits and such.

A 200 man tengu blob is two things. Vulnerable because they do almost entirely kinetic damage, and fun to shoot at because they have nice huge sigs if they're buffer fit.

This math is not correct. 400k raw volley damage with 80% resist is 80k real hp. Abaddon has 8750 shields, 32k-ish armor and 10k structure. It would be easily alpha'd if 400k volley and 80% resist are realistic numbers. Realistically the volley might be significantly lower due to coordination issues etc, but there's a good margin of safety and the 80% resist is a little high too I think.

Sig radius and explosion velocity should probably not be an issue unless a mwd is involved. A tengu's heavies or hams should hit for close to full damage against BSs.
Edit: Addressed sig radius and explosion velocity

Nax
May 15 2012, 02:14:49 PM
Thats going to translate into a not exactly terrifying number. I'd reckon something like 50k ehp on smaller ships, and 70k or so on battleships.

I can't think of a battleship that would be alpha'd by 70k ehp worth of damage(excepting squishy snipe fits or weird active tanks), and I can't think of any t3 that would be alpha'd by 50k... well, except some loki fits and such.

Umm, aren't you applying your ship's resistances twice? You're reducing incoming damage by the ship's resistances, then using the ships ehp (base hit points increased by resistances) to resist the reduced damage?

Or am I brain farting this early in the morning?

Cue1*
May 15 2012, 02:31:17 PM
Thats going to translate into a not exactly terrifying number. I'd reckon something like 50k ehp on smaller ships, and 70k or so on battleships.

I can't think of a battleship that would be alpha'd by 70k ehp worth of damage(excepting squishy snipe fits or weird active tanks), and I can't think of any t3 that would be alpha'd by 50k... well, except some loki fits and such.

Umm, aren't you applying your ship's resistances twice? You're reducing incoming damage by the ship's resistances, then using the ships ehp (base hit points increased by resistances) to resist the reduced damage?

Or am I brain farting this early in the morning?

No, you're right. You either compare raw damage to EHP or adjusted damage to raw HP. Not adjusted damage to EHP. Most of the damage mitigation is going to come from the AB and small sig, not the EHP. that 400k DPS is going to be more like 150k DPS on armor T3's.

Starscream26
May 15 2012, 02:31:22 PM
We are talking about 200 tengu volleys here. That really won't alpha subcaps? Even with a 2k volley each that's 400k ehp before resists. A 6 launcher, 3BCU T2 fits seems to do nearer 2.2k for kinetic with faction ammo. I would have thought that was sufficient.

I had to register just to comment on this.

400k ehp before resists. Even if, going into a fight with an army of Tengu's, the ship they're shooting at only has 80 percent kin resist(which is retardedly low if you're going to fight a massive tengu blob), that translates into something like 80k ehp worth of actual damage, then its further mitigated by sig radius and velocity, and then again by actual co-ordination of the pilots firing (good luck getting a 200 man tengu blob to fire at the exact same time, or even for all of them to shoot the same guy).

Thats going to translate into a not exactly terrifying number. I'd reckon something like 50k ehp on smaller ships, and 70k or so on battleships.

I can't think of a battleship that would be alpha'd by 70k ehp worth of damage(excepting squishy snipe fits or weird active tanks), and I can't think of any t3 that would be alpha'd by 50k... well, except some loki fits and such.

A 200 man tengu blob is two things. Vulnerable because they do almost entirely kinetic damage, and fun to shoot at because they have nice huge sigs if they're buffer fit.

This math is not correct. 400k raw volley damage with 80% resist is 80k real hp. Abaddon has 8750 shields, 32k-ish armor and 10k structure. It would be easily alpha'd if 400k volley and 80% resist are realistic numbers. Realistically the volley might be significantly lower due to coordination issues etc, but there's a good margin of safety and the 80% resist is a little high too I think.

Sig radius and explosion velocity should probably not be an issue unless a mwd is involved. A tengu's heavies or hams should hit for close to full damage against BSs.
Edit: Addressed sig radius and explosion velocity


AHA! I begin to follow thanks. I somehow failed to make that conversion in my head. Still survivable though. and I don't think 80 percent kin is particularly low if you know you're going to be fighting tengublobs?

Brinkken
May 15 2012, 02:39:24 PM
AHA! I begin to follow thanks. I somehow failed to make that conversion in my head. Still survivable though. and I don't think 80 percent kin is particularly low if you know you're going to be fighting tengublobs?

True, I suppose you would prepare to face kinetic. It's probably survivable but it'd be a very close thing I think.