[PVP] Guardian

[Angel Hun]

[Guardian, NCdot]
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Centii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Armor EM Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Arup' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Arup' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Arup' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Medium 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Pretty much one of the more common min maxed fits that you will find. Does the job.

[phpBB:CriticalError]

[Guardian, t2acr]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Medium 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Bit more expensive, but imho this is *the* guardian fit. If only two guards, swap ab for dual eccm.

[Omega Supreme]

Doesn't meta 4 LRAR perform exactly the same as T2?

[Kalnov]

t2 cycles a bit faster, therefore a bit better.

[phpBB:CriticalError]

its 4.5s duration rather than 5s, meaning 10% more rep.

e: the duraion is eally noticeable in ganglinked fleets, when you heat 8-)

[The Djego]

its 4.5s duration rather than 5s, meaning 10% more rep.

e: the duraion is eally noticeable in ganglinked fleets, when you heat 8-)

It also helps a lot if your reps are stuck into a cycle while the other gang swaps targets to something with low EHP like another logi.

[Guardian, Small Gang]
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
Corpii A-Type Reflective Plating
Damage Control II
Centii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating

10MN Afterburner II
Prototype ECCM I Radar Sensor Cluster

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


Hornet EC-300 x5

[spm1138]

T2 LRARs are good but increasingly we're finding that you need the 1600 for fighting certain gang compositions, alpha being all the rage atm.

Think we stole this off R&K or SoT.


[Guardian, Expensiveish]
Damage Control II
Coreli A-Type Thermic Plating
Coreli C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

[phpBB:CriticalError]

does the second large cap xfer really need to be large? with logi5 one large cap xfer will keep you easily capped up, and the mediums as backup/for random fleetmates.

And if you drop that 2nd cap xfer to medium, you can t2 the last two RR's, and save 40-50m or so on the second t2 ACR.

[Helen]

does the second large cap xfer really need to be large? with logi5 one large cap xfer will keep you easily capped up, and the mediums as backup/for random fleetmates.

And if you drop that 2nd cap xfer to medium, you can t2 the last two RR's, and save 40-50m or so on the second t2 ACR.

Sure there isn't a hard and fast rule unless your corp/alliance only refund ones built to their load out.

[HyJek]

does the second large cap xfer really need to be large? with logi5 one large cap xfer will keep you easily capped up, and the mediums as backup/for random fleetmates.

And if you drop that 2nd cap xfer to medium, you can t2 the last two RR's, and save 40-50m or so on the second t2 ACR.

generally speaking you want large assuming you are transferring to two other guardians...that way if you die or someone that's transferring to you dies you are still able to run reps/ab without running out of cap

also I think DC/1600 plate are pretty essential these days

[spm1138]

does the second large cap xfer really need to be large? with logi5 one large cap xfer will keep you easily capped up, and the mediums as backup/for random fleetmates.

And if you drop that 2nd cap xfer to medium, you can t2 the last two RR's, and save 40-50m or so on the second t2 ACR.

generally speaking you want large assuming you are transferring to two other guardians...that way if you die or someone that's transferring to you dies you are still able to run reps/ab without running out of cap

also I think DC/1600 plate are pretty essential these days

It does provide a bit of redundancy built into the capchain to make it survive losing a ship or people getting jammed.

[HyJek]

this is the standard fit we use

1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

10MN Afterburner II
Prototype ECCM I Radar Sensor Cluster

Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large Remote Armor Repair II
Large Remote Armor Repair II
Large Remote Armor Repair II
Large Remote Armor Repair II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Light Armor Maintenance Bot II x5

[Lady Spank]

Dual-boxing 'not an oneiros' fit which works pretty damn fine. medium neut (and warriors) to tell tacklers to cock off. Rigs are probably not optimal but I've never felt the need to change it.

[Guardian, solo guardian]
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor I


Warrior II x5

[Suleiman Shouaa]

Dual-boxing 'not an oneiros' fit which works pretty damn fine. medium neut (and warriors) to tell tacklers to cock off. Rigs are probably not optimal but I've never felt the need to change it.

[Guardian, solo guardian]
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor I


Warrior II x5

Can save ~10M by replacing meta4 neut with T2 - it fits and has the same stats.

[RoemySchneider]

maximum rep

[Guardian, maximum]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Reactor Control Unit II
Centii A-Type Thermic Plating
Centii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating

Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


but ye, it sacrifices a bit here and there, and costs a bit more - just to get those tiny little extra % of rep vOv
alas, T2 generally burns through quicker when overloading (see 'heat emission' in EFT), even more so with the shorter cycles T2 RR features.

~~~~~~

ofc the 5x solace machine isn't much cheaper either but anything else is sabotage to your own fleet ^^ https://www.pottysworld.org/phpBB3/images/smilies/pirate.gif

[Guardian, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

[mistersparky]

If you wanted to go 1600mm, why not drop 1 large RR down to a medium? You lose 1/8th of your rep capacity (along with a little range on the 1 medium), while gaining 25% EHP and keeping the dual energy xfers:-

[Guardian, 1600mm plate]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Damage Control II

10MN Afterburner II
Prototype ECCM I Radar Sensor Cluster

Medium 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Adaptives could and almost certainly would be swapped over for c-types, or at least Shadow Serp adaptives.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

[Guardian, t2acr]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Medium 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Bit more expensive, but imho this is *the* guardian fit. If only two guards, swap ab for dual eccm.Just noticed this quip in the earlier post: seems like this would essentially never be a good idea....

[BOOLER]

[quote="phpBB:CriticalError":1oz6zp8h][Guardian, t2acr]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Medium 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Bit more expensive, but imho this is *the* guardian fit. If only two guards, swap ab for dual eccm.Just noticed this quip in the earlier post: seems like this would essentially never be a good idea....[/quote:1oz6zp8h]

Dont like to use guards without AB, you're losing a lot of its survivability without it being there. Ship with a sig that low really needs the speed so bs's cant do the damage.

If you are that concerned about jamming get an alt with high grade grails :)

[Jalif]

[quote="phpBB:CriticalError":39z8q9zb][Guardian, t2acr]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
Corpii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Medium 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Bit more expensive, but imho this is *the* guardian fit. If only two guards, swap ab for dual eccm.Just noticed this quip in the earlier post: seems like this would essentially never be a good idea....

Dont like to use guards without AB, you're losing a lot of its survivability without it being there. Ship with a sig that low really needs the speed so bs's cant do the damage.

If you are that concerned about jamming get an alt with high grade grails :)[/quote:39z8q9zb]

OMFG BOOLER! WHAT YOU DOIN HERE!? :D

Also, BOOLER is right! - Snuffbox Guardians best Guardians....

[mistersparky]

Any thoughts on the pros and cons of using the T2 energy transfers over the meta 4 modules?

[Talinthi]

Any thoughts on the pros and cons of using the T2 energy transfers over the meta 4 modules?

base/all lvl5 guardian

meta 4:
activation: 338/63.4
cap: 324

t2:
activation: 366/68.63
cap:351

from the numbers alone the t2 are better but a hell of a lot harder to fit with the 4 lg remote armor reps. its better to use the meta 4 if you don't want to spend an arm and a leg on your guardian.

[BOOLER]

Yup, t2 cap xfer gimp your setup so hard its not worth it. If you wanna pimp you can stick an a-type medium cap transfer on, with one t2 and one t1 acr it fits fine with the left over PG & CPU.

[BOOLER]

? Oh, and hi Jalif ?

[Mesh M]

I wouldn't really use T2 transfers as the default option. Creates a huge problem when it comes to fitting the rest of the stuff and the guardian as it is is already tight on grid and cpu. Also logi V guards run stable with a regard, more transfer is nice but not really necessary.

Some points about tanking a guardian.

1 . if you're running really small gangs you can get away with a 800 plate. put a high emphasis on resists then cause your guardian number will be low and you want to boost the remote repped tank as much as possible to be able to fight against the odds without having to deagress your guardians - if that happens the fight is quite often a lost cause, especially if you have only one pair.

2. if you're running larger gangs (i'd put the borderline somewhere between 15-20 guys in fleet, 4-6 guardians, go by all means for a 1600 plate. As people already pointed out, alpha is the name of the game today and my experience tells me that 800's guardians are much more difficult to catch, especially when ewar is on the field as well. We made that transition a year ago and never have looked back, especially since the drawbacks (other than the price for the T2 rig) are so small that 800 guardians have become exotic creatures in new eden.

3. I think a lot of the fittings fielded suffer from the stern doctrine that all slots in the highs should be large modules. That causes enormous pg issues when coupled with a 1600 plate tank. In fact it forces to either use to fitting rigs or an rcu, which does reduce your tank quite a bit.

[Talinthi]

I think a lot of the fittings fielded suffer from the stern doctrine that all slots in the highs should be large modules. That causes enormous pg issues when coupled with a 1600 plate tank. In fact it forces to either use to fitting rigs or an rcu, which does reduce your tank quite a bit.


fitting rigs are pretty much standard on guardians these days, our corp fit uses dual t2 acr rigs to fit 1600 and 4 lg reps and 2 lg x-fers, gives insane tanking abilities and has led to many victories for us. only time I've ever lost one of these guardians was when we raped a fleet that was ran right into us of equal size and then got raped by the nc blob chasing them(9 sleips with jamming/logi support kinda beats a guardian rep wise...)

as it's a corp fitting I sadly cannot post it.

[Mesh M]

I'm not critizising using one fitting rig - you have to do that in order to fit a 1600 plate. The second one or the rcu is the point where its debatable. Btw, no corp fitting is really a secret once you lose the first one - like this one :)

[Guardian, Tal'rakken's Guardian]
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Dark Blood Armor Thermic Hardener
Shadow Serpentis Armor EM Hardener
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

It is what i would call a pretty generic dual MACR II fit, pimped with a bit more faction than usual :)

[Talinthi]

oh I know, but I didn't post it :lol:

and that fit gets about 50-54k efhp. all depends on your personal skills. I personally trade in some of the m4 for t2 where i can in the highs.

[HyJek]

it's way more important to fit t2 reps compared to energy transfers since you won't run out of cap regardless of meta4 vs t2 transfer where as t2 reps will put out more per cycle

[Nathan]

Impressive, that pimped RnK guardian is like 350M+. :D

[Mesh M]

That's not our fit :) But its not unsual to have guardian cost like 250+ these days, given the costs of the hull, t2 rig(s) and faction tank.
The main advantage of the T2 rep is btw the fact that it cycles faster. Given that armor rep (remote or local) suffers from being applied to the end of the cycle rather than at the beginning virtually every tenth of second counts when you fight fleets with a higher alpha.

[Morralars]

[Guardian, Fleet Setup]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Reactor Control Unit II
Damage Control II
Dark Blood Armor Thermic Hardener
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners
ECCM - Radar II

Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

5 x EC-300

Requires a PG2 implant, i dont see a problem with this when im flying a logi.

Ive been using this in fleet lately, you can change the DB hardener for an adaptive nano plating for 2.5k less EHP. But i like to buff the low Thermic resistance, especially when fighting against lazors.

[Lex Fasces]

can you not use a thermic plating instead then?

[kyrieee]

This fit tanks more than any of the other fits posted so far and I'm more or less convinced it's the best 1600mm plate / 2 energy x-fer fit possible. I hope nobody gets mad at me for posting it :?

[Guardian, best guardian fit]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
Damage Control II

Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
10MN Afterburner II

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


One of these tanks 4664 DPS for every other Guardian repping it, overloaded with a gang booster. The RnK fit with 3 Large 2 Medium tanks 238 DPS more but I think you become too vulnerable to neuts when you only have 1 x-fer. For comparison's sake most of the fits in this thread tank around 3000 with the good ones getting to 4000.

It costs about the same as Mesh's fit, but it tanks more.

[felix-arb]

[Guardian, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Centii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II

10MN Afterburner II
ECCM - Radar II

Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

slightly cheaper version of fit posted above, i like the 5 rep fits, although perhaps its not wise to have all your guardians with 5 reps due to capacitor calls

[Daneel Trevize]

Meta 4 eccm, best eccm iirc.

[Sparkus Volundar]

Yeah. Cheap and 1/3 rd less cap needed.

[Daneel Trevize]

Overheats better too iirc which is the biggest deal.

[Cue1*]

Overheats better too iirc which is the biggest deal.
Don't all meta4 mods overheat better than T2 stuff?

[Sponk]

Don't all meta4 mods overheat better than T2 stuff?Yes, but not all Meta 4 mods are as good as T2.

[Warmenhoven]

Just a quick question, what's the consensus on fitting a DCUII or not? I feel dirty not fitting one on an armour tanked ship but can also see the merits of better resists across teh board.

[edit] actually scratch that with the stacking penalties involved the DCUII seems to be the way to go.

[Mesh M]

There is a fit where a dcu in inferior to an a-type ANP. However the difference is very marginal and probably not worth the investment. Generally for 99 % of the fits you can't go wrong with a dcu.

[Warmenhoven]

Thanks =]

On a side note, I was wondering if it would be worth dropping the 2nd MRR on the caboose type fits for another 1K armour HP? You'd also have to drop form one large transfer to two mediums so i suppose neuts would also become more of a problem =/ Still it does add another 9K EHP w/heat. 12K w/LG slaves IIRC.

[RoemySchneider]

Just a quick question, what's the consensus on fitting a DCUII or not? I feel dirty not fitting one on an armour tanked ship but can also see the merits of better resists across teh board.

[edit] actually scratch that with the stacking penalties involved the DCUII seems to be the way to go.also note that guardians often come backed up by armor ganglinks - that resist bonus is also subject to stacking penalty.
even if it's on a 'mere' damnation, it's 25.875%, therefore claims the spot before (energized) adaptives (25% at all-V)

[Mesh M]

Indeed, the damnation bonus is one of the major culprits for making the dcu superior in almost any situation.

[kyrieee]

Thanks =]

On a side note, I was wondering if it would be worth dropping the 2nd MRR on the caboose type fits for another 1K armour HP? You'd also have to drop form one large transfer to two mediums so i suppose neuts would also become more of a problem =/ Still it does add another 9K EHP w/heat. 12K w/LG slaves IIRC.

That's a small gang fit, with a 1600mm plate + resist mods you have enough EHP to get reps in time unless you or someone else fucks up. Sustained rep > EHP in scenarios where getting alpha'd isn't a huge concern. The only Guardian fit I'd trimark would be ones for blobwars.

[Sudden]

Just droppin these here:

1600+AB

1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
Damage Control II

Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
10MN Afterburner II

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II



800+MWD

800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Imperial Navy Armor Thermic Hardener
Imperial Navy Armor EM Hardener
Imperial Navy Armor Kinetic Hardener
Coreli A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating


Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I


Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large 'Regard' Power Projector
Large 'Regard' Power Projector


Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

You can get a 2nd LRAR II on the 2nd fit with a 1%pg

[kyrieee]

On that first fit you're actually better off replacing the DCU with a kinetic hardener. Tank is almost the same before overload, but quite a bit better with overload (6106 DPS vs 5654 DPS).

[Sudden]

On that first fit you're actually better off replacing the DCU with a kinetic hardener. Tank is almost the same before overload, but quite a bit better with overload (6106 DPS vs 5654 DPS).

Durr, youre right, I linked the wrong fit. Out of curiosity, though, does the DCU stack better with Damnation links?

[Daneel Trevize]

IIRC DC2 and active hardeners(when on?) don't get bonuses from resist links, and DC2s don't stack. So you've nothing that's bonused and stacking except the one (E)ANM so links aren't a factor. A resist rig would stack I think.
Pure armour increase from the link pilot's skills & mindlink are a diff matter, as is whether the unstacking DC2 is better than a hardener stacking with your other (passive) resist mods.

[gpfault]

IIRC DC2 and active hardeners(when on?) don't get bonuses from resist links, and DC2s don't stack. So you've nothing that's bonused and stacking except the one (E)ANM so links aren't a factor. A resist rig would stack I think.

Links don't give a bonus to resist mods they just give the receiving ships a "free" EANM/invuln which stacks the same as every other resist mod (except DCs).

[Sponk]

C

[jockothemonkey]

Anyone have any experience with remote ECCM on Guardians? It looks on paper like it should do a better than local ECCM (120% vs 96%) and you already have the cap chain going.
[Guardian, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

10MN Afterburner II
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I

Medium 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Arup' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Arup' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Arup' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' Power Projector
Large 'Regard' Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

[Daneel Trevize]

I think the common answer is that the best Guardian is the DC2, triple faction hardener, 1 cap trans, T2 LARRs one, which then lacks the spare CPU to move from local ECCM to remote (from requiring 16 to 40).

Also I think you're best with local ECCM and others projecting onto you. Are you talking in just a pair in a very small gang? You'd have slightly more but if one gets jammed, both can be much easier, no?

[jockothemonkey]

I was thinking more like 4-10 guardians in a fleet. Typically you will have at least 2 other guardians locked to maintain the cap chain, if one of them gets targeted by ECM you can switch your boost to them. Given how ECM works it may take the enemy a while to figure out why they can't jam the primary target.

[Daneel Trevize]

But then you have guardians with no ECCM at all being hit by even off-racial jammers, and with probability being a bitch, I wonder if you won't suffer more jams in the long run. Also you're screwed once the enemy learns of this setup, or just bring all Amarr jammers and spreads them. If you focus ECCM, you die, if you spread ECCM evenly, it's not much more.
Edit:
it may take the enemy a while to figure out why they can't jam the primary target.My obvious assumption is that the enemy aren't stupid enough to try ECM the dps primary, but instead any other logi that might be trying to rep them. And with you having 4-10 logi, there shouldn't be a ECM primary.

Mostly though I think you need to redo the basics of the fit, you don't have good resists or the fastest cycling of T2 LARRs.
Must the fit work with Logi4 or can you ensure all have 5?

[Ophichius]

Anyone have any experience with remote ECCM on Guardians? It looks on paper like it should do a better than local ECCM (120% vs 96%) and you already have the cap chain going.
[Guardian, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

10MN Afterburner II
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I

Medium 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Arup' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Arup' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Arup' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' Power Projector
Large 'Regard' Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

That setup will explode nicely and thus I encourage everyone outside my alliance to fly it whenever possible.

In all seriousness, ANP IIs on a Guardian is asking for trouble, you're lowering your EHP and resists, you've got meta3 reps fitted, which is directly opposed to the whole point of the ship (REP ALL THE THINGS), projected ECCM is mostly worthless in that pattern. Just...not good at all. You'll die with that fit, and die screaming. Breaking the lock of a single ship in the fleet can initiate an extremely nasty failure cascade. Think of what happens when your cap chain fails, but with locks.

If you want to take advantage of the sweet, sweet smell of projected ECCM, throw some remote ECCMs on your Damnation. Better yet, slap a command processor in a mid and throw a sensor integrity link in high.

Projected ECCM is really neat when you can set it up, but you want it set up from a ship outside of your core Guardian setup so that you can have local -and- remote ECCM bonuses, which makes your entire Guardian group into a giant ball of 'fuck your falcons'. The trick of course, is finding the spare mids on other ships.

-O

[Sponk]

Perhaps something like this could run with the guardians?


[Oneiros, Oneiros Needs Capacitor badly]

Imperial Navy Armor EM Hardener
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Reactive Armor Hardener

10MN Afterburner II
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
Prototype ECCM Magnetometric Sensor Cluster

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot II x5

[Ophichius]

Perhaps something like this could run with the guardians?


[Oneiros, Oneiros Needs Capacitor badly]

Imperial Navy Armor EM Hardener
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Reactive Armor Hardener

10MN Afterburner II
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
Prototype ECCM Magnetometric Sensor Cluster

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot II x5



That seems like a really poor use of mids to be honest. The Oneiros is so strongly bonused to tracking links that it would be foolish to not use those free mids for that. It works, but it's inelegant and a suboptimal use of available slots.

I'd find a volunteer to run a 1600-plated Cyclone or something, if you really want to go all-out on ECCM.

-O

[Cue1*]

Perhaps something like this could run with the guardians?


[Oneiros, Oneiros Needs Capacitor badly]

Imperial Navy Armor EM Hardener
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Reactive Armor Hardener

10MN Afterburner II
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
Prototype ECCM Magnetometric Sensor Cluster

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot II x5



That seems like a really poor use of mids to be honest. The Oneiros is so strongly bonused to tracking links that it would be foolish to not use those free mids for that. It works, but it's inelegant and a suboptimal use of available slots.

I'd find a volunteer to run a 1600-plated Cyclone or something, if you really want to go all-out on ECCM.

-O

IIRC it was Darkside that made the pod setup with two Guardians and that Oneiros. The concept required ridiculous micro but was fairly successful. While not the best use on paper, it does work.

[RoemySchneider]

fairly certain that we've established how (bonus'ed) tracking links are inferior to even a (slightly spec skilled) painter 5+ years ago vOv


the G2O concept was 'developed' when aHACs crammed white noise jammers onto their zealots because everyone was fielding guardians (and opposing aHAC fleets obv consisted of 90% zealots as well -.-).
the logis then had about twice the sensor strength on each ship compared to 3G, while offering the same amounts of RR.
alas, after the oneiros slot flip, it could no longer run 2 'personal' ECCMs which somehow defeated the 'whole' purpose vOv

[Ophichius]

fairly certain that we've established how (bonus'ed) tracking links are inferior to even a (slightly spec skilled) painter 5+ years ago vOv

Refresh my memory? Not that I don't believe you, since you're basically the tracking formula king, but I'd like to know where the breakpoints are and such. Plus hey, more math = more awesome.



the G2O concept was 'developed' when aHACs crammed white noise jammers onto their zealots because everyone was fielding guardians (and opposing aHAC fleets obv consisted of 90% zealots as well -.-).
the logis then had about twice the sensor strength on each ship compared to 3G, while offering the same amounts of RR.
alas, after the oneiros slot flip, it could no longer run 2 'personal' ECCMs which somehow defeated the 'whole' purpose vOv

Makes a lot of sense in that environment actually. And while I've never heard of G2O before now, I would think the reason the single personal ECCM was a liability was that G2O was a very obvious fleet setup, and thus without dual local ECCMs giving the Oneiros similar sensor strengths, one could bring small fraction of their fleet's total jamming power as magnetometric and still solidly jam out the Oneiros, leading to the collapse of the ECCM protection for the Guardians. A couple falcons or what have you fitted for pure magnetometric could pick off and shut down quite a bit of the enemy Oneiros protection, letting the AHAC-mounted jams through to the Guardians.

-O

[Sponk]

fairly certain that we've established how (bonus'ed) tracking links are inferior to even a (slightly spec skilled) painter 5+ years ago vOv

Refresh my memory? Not that I don't believe you, since you're basically the tracking formula king, but I'd like to know where the breakpoints are and such. Plus hey, more math = more awesome.

in short:

1. Painters help everyone in fleet kill the target. Links only help 1 person.
2. Painters have mad range. Links have like 5km.
3. Tracking link + script -> 30% boost, same as painter
4. tracking links don't have 5%/level skill bonus like painters do.

[LordsServant]

fairly certain that we've established how (bonus'ed) tracking links are inferior to even a (slightly spec skilled) painter 5+ years ago vOv

Refresh my memory? Not that I don't believe you, since you're basically the tracking formula king, but I'd like to know where the breakpoints are and such. Plus hey, more math = more awesome.

in short:

1. Painters help everyone in fleet kill the target. Links only help 1 person.
2. Painters have mad range. Links have like 5km.
3. Tracking link + script -> 30% boost, same as painter
4. tracking links don't have 5%/level skill bonus like painters do.

So in 1-2 man situations, esp for sniping/extremely LR ships, tracking links are superior? (only like 1% of all situations, but they *CAN* be superior?)

[Warmenhoven]

c-type em/kin hard is now cheaper than c-type ANP, just saying.