PDA

View Full Version : Is patriotism obsolete?



Nordstern
June 19 2013, 12:07:12 AM
As in, does being loyal to any particular country confer any special benefits? I'm not talking about citizenship, I'm talking about allegiances.

We Americans recite the Pledge of Allegiance, but what do we get out of it? Warm fuzzies?
Capitalist companies don't like one country, so they move operations to another. Is this unpatriotic? Should such companies be penalized? How should they be penalized?
If one moves from one first-world country to another, are they somehow "less free"?
What about those with dual citizenship? Can they be considered to have loyalty to a particular country?

Shin_getter
June 19 2013, 12:29:07 AM
Patriotism never was a good idea for individuals, in terms of their benefits. Dying for your country is still dying mkay~ That is not saying cooperation can't be useful, buy loyalty usually isn't.

It is a magic trick of social engineering that directs the emotions and force of kin selection to organizations orders of magnitudes bigger.

Nordstern
June 19 2013, 02:59:14 AM
So basically, you're saying it's a mechanism to get people to ignore their own self-interest and sense of self-preservation in order to pursue someone else's interests.

Lallante
June 19 2013, 09:37:32 AM
Patriotism makes sense when your country has radically different and better values than others.

Patriotism towards the USA therefore makes no sense whatsoever.

Nordstern
June 19 2013, 04:30:51 PM
Who determines if some country's values are "better"? Hardly objective.

Ophichius
June 19 2013, 05:16:47 PM
Patriotism never was a good idea for individuals, in terms of their benefits. Dying for your country is still dying mkay~ That is not saying cooperation can't be useful, buy loyalty usually isn't.

It is a magic trick of social engineering that directs the emotions and force of kin selection to organizations orders of magnitudes bigger.

Dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori?

On a less snarky note. Patriotism works best in a society with a functioning social contract. To say that it is 'obsolete' is to imply that leaving it behind represents a form of progress. Like many other concepts of society (etiquette, value, ethics) patriotism is a tool for collectively shaping the behavior of a society. It will likely never be obsolete, because it taps into a very basic, fundamental portion of the human brain, wired for tribal behavior. The ability to subvert tribal instincts to apply to a larger group is a useful tool in societal engineering.

-O

Rakshasa The Cat
June 19 2013, 05:20:56 PM
Transnationalism is the future.

Nordstern
June 19 2013, 06:54:22 PM
Transnationalism is the future.
I think it's already here.

Ophichius: Can people claim to be patriotic if they don't believe in a social contract?

SAI Peregrinus
June 19 2013, 11:14:22 PM
Patriotism is an amazing tool for controlling the populace. Convincing people to believe that it's a virtue is an easy thing, and labeling things you're politically opposed to as unpatriotic is easy as well.

ValorousBob
June 20 2013, 09:00:48 AM
You guys are mistaking love of country for love of the regime running the country. In the US, being patriotic means loving the *idea* of America and the ideas expressed in the Constitution. In that sense, patriotism is useful because it keeps us vigilant and engaged in public affairs. If more Americans were truly patriotic, we would've stopped this bullshit with the Patriot Act and the NSA a long time ago.

Ophichius
June 20 2013, 11:31:00 AM
Transnationalism is the future.
I think it's already here.

Ophichius: Can people claim to be patriotic if they don't believe in a social contract?

Anyone can claim anything. I can claim to be a lost martian princess.

Of course, if you don't believe in a social contract (i.e. that at some level one must surrender some freedoms for security.) that means your belief in society is what? That it's a construct imposed upon us by those who would controls us (i.e. Nietzsche was right)? I can't really fathom someone who believe that society exists to control people being a staunch patriot. But I guess stranger things have happened.

-O

Procellus
June 21 2013, 01:50:26 PM
You guys are mistaking love of country for love of the regime running the country. In the US, being patriotic means loving the *idea* of America and the ideas expressed in the Constitution. In that sense, patriotism is useful because it keeps us vigilant and engaged in public affairs. If more Americans were truly patriotic, we would've stopped this bullshit with the Patriot Act and the NSA a long time ago.

Pretty much this. I think the Constitution is among the greatest pieces of human achievement. That doesn't mean I'm particularly enraptured by the people running the government

Synapse
June 25 2013, 05:28:55 PM
You guys are mistaking love of country for love of the regime running the country. In the US, being patriotic means loving the *idea* of America and the ideas expressed in the Constitution. In that sense, patriotism is useful because it keeps us vigilant and engaged in public affairs. If more Americans were truly patriotic, we would've stopped this bullshit with the Patriot Act and the NSA a long time ago.

Pretty much this. I think the Constitution is among the greatest pieces of human achievement. That doesn't mean I'm particularly enraptured by the people running the government

...or is this just a "no true patriot" line of argument?

More seriously, I lump patriotism in with all other forms of "Pride" which I believe to be generally negative, despite social norms.

Believe it or not it came from a reading of the bible in which pride is listed as negative with no additional clarification. I did some thinking about it and it's pretty much negative all the way from "I'm awesome" (vanity) through "My school is awesome" (school spirit) to "my country is awesome" (patriotism) to "my race is awesome" (racism) to "my species is awesome" (anthropism)

Holding a belief in superiority seems to always result in mistreatment. Some forms of pride we already view as negative, like vanity, racism, and (frequently) anthropism, while school spirit and patriotism remain useful to create out-groups against which we can set our social structures, so we keep them. I still think despite their usefulness those two prove to have a negative influence as well.

Tarminic
June 25 2013, 05:55:45 PM
On a less snarky note. Patriotism works best in a society with a functioning social contract. To say that it is 'obsolete' is to imply that leaving it behind represents a form of progress. Like many other concepts of society (etiquette, value, ethics) patriotism is a tool for collectively shaping the behavior of a society. It will likely never be obsolete, because it taps into a very basic, fundamental portion of the human brain, wired for tribal behavior. The ability to subvert tribal instincts to apply to a larger group is a useful tool in societal engineering.
Good post.

Patriotism is a pretty effective tool in uniting people, but whether that is good or bad depends entirely on what people are being united for or against. I'd say that generally, as long as tribalism is engrained in the human psyche, patriotism won't be obsolete, it'll just be more difficult to apply as society become less insular.

definatelynotKKassandra
June 25 2013, 06:09:27 PM
On a less snarky note. Patriotism works best in a society with a functioning social contract. To say that it is 'obsolete' is to imply that leaving it behind represents a form of progress. Like many other concepts of society (etiquette, value, ethics) patriotism is a tool for collectively shaping the behavior of a society. It will likely never be obsolete, because it taps into a very basic, fundamental portion of the human brain, wired for tribal behavior. The ability to subvert tribal instincts to apply to a larger group is a useful tool in societal engineering.
Good post.

Patriotism is a pretty effective tool in uniting people, but whether that is good or bad depends entirely on what people are being united for or against. I'd say that generally, as long as tribalism is engrained in the human psyche, patriotism won't be obsolete, it'll just be more difficult to apply as society become less insular.

As people have said, some form of tribalism is probably inherent to human nature. The question is how this is expressed by the society - there's a spectrum between 'let's work together to be the best damn hunter-gatherer group / football team we can be' and 'their football team beat ours, therefore we must burn the city down'.

Ophichius
June 25 2013, 08:10:15 PM
You guys are mistaking love of country for love of the regime running the country. In the US, being patriotic means loving the *idea* of America and the ideas expressed in the Constitution. In that sense, patriotism is useful because it keeps us vigilant and engaged in public affairs. If more Americans were truly patriotic, we would've stopped this bullshit with the Patriot Act and the NSA a long time ago.

Pretty much this. I think the Constitution is among the greatest pieces of human achievement. That doesn't mean I'm particularly enraptured by the people running the government

...or is this just a "no true patriot" line of argument?

More seriously, I lump patriotism in with all other forms of "Pride" which I believe to be generally negative, despite social norms.

Believe it or not it came from a reading of the bible in which pride is listed as negative with no additional clarification. I did some thinking about it and it's pretty much negative all the way from "I'm awesome" (vanity) through "My school is awesome" (school spirit) to "my country is awesome" (patriotism) to "my race is awesome" (racism) to "my species is awesome" (anthropism)

Holding a belief in superiority seems to always result in mistreatment. Some forms of pride we already view as negative, like vanity, racism, and (frequently) anthropism, while school spirit and patriotism remain useful to create out-groups against which we can set our social structures, so we keep them. I still think despite their usefulness those two prove to have a negative influence as well.

You're conflating two different concepts there. And using a rather shaky justification to tie it all together. Pride and feelings of supremacy are not the same. One can be proud without being egotistical. You're conflating pride with egotism, and the two are not the same. If you examine the context of the biblical discussions of pride, they almost all center around what would be more specifically called hubris.

Also, if you really mean the last bit it's technically speciesism, not anthropism. Anthropism would be the belief that the entire universe exists for the sole pleasure of humanity. (And is separate from the anthropic principle...which is a set of philosophic questions/theories regarding why the universe has turned out to be hospitable to human life at all.)

-O

Wrack
June 25 2013, 08:39:33 PM
You guys are mistaking love of country for love of the regime running the country. In the US, being patriotic means loving the *idea* of America and the ideas expressed in the Constitution. In that sense, patriotism is useful because it keeps us vigilant and engaged in public affairs. If more Americans were truly patriotic, we would've stopped this bullshit with the Patriot Act and the NSA a long time ago.

Pretty much this. I think the Constitution is among the greatest pieces of human achievement. That doesn't mean I'm particularly enraptured by the people running the government

Two hundred years ago, the constitution was a racist, sexist piece of shit. It's only good because we have continued to bring it up to our level as we progressed as a society (eg. the 14th amendment), yet we have also shat on it when we weren't so noble (eg. citizens united). Isolating the constitution from its treatment just to be able to call yourself a patriot is a technique of self-deception.

Tarminic
June 25 2013, 09:11:01 PM
You guys are mistaking love of country for love of the regime running the country. In the US, being patriotic means loving the *idea* of America and the ideas expressed in the Constitution. In that sense, patriotism is useful because it keeps us vigilant and engaged in public affairs. If more Americans were truly patriotic, we would've stopped this bullshit with the Patriot Act and the NSA a long time ago.

Pretty much this. I think the Constitution is among the greatest pieces of human achievement. That doesn't mean I'm particularly enraptured by the people running the government

Two hundred years ago, the constitution was a racist, sexist piece of shit. It's only good because we have continued to bring it up to our level as we progressed as a society (eg. the 14th amendment), yet we have also shat on it when we weren't so noble (eg. citizens united). Isolating the constitution from its treatment just to be able to call yourself a patriot is a technique of self-deception.
I think judging the Constitution as it was written 200 years ago by today's moral standards is a bit like judging the Eiffel Tower by today's engineering standards. That doesn't imply that the founding fathers get a pass on slavery and sexism, or that it should be glossed over? Absolutely not, but it's important to consider the context in which the Constitution was written.

Straight Hustlin
June 25 2013, 09:41:32 PM
You guys are mistaking love of country for love of the regime running the country. In the US, being patriotic means loving the *idea* of America and the ideas expressed in the Constitution. In that sense, patriotism is useful because it keeps us vigilant and engaged in public affairs. If more Americans were truly patriotic, we would've stopped this bullshit with the Patriot Act and the NSA a long time ago.

Pretty much this. I think the Constitution is among the greatest pieces of human achievement. That doesn't mean I'm particularly enraptured by the people running the government

Two hundred years ago, the constitution was a racist, sexist piece of shit. It's only good because we have continued to bring it up to our level as we progressed as a society (eg. the 14th amendment), yet we have also shat on it when we weren't so noble (eg. citizens united). Isolating the constitution from its treatment just to be able to call yourself a patriot is a technique of self-deception.
I think judging the Constitution as it was written 200 years ago by today's moral standards is a bit like judging the Eiffel Tower by today's engineering standards. That doesn't imply that the founding fathers get a pass on slavery and sexism, or that it should be glossed over? Absolutely not, but it's important to consider the context in which the Constitution was written.

To build upon your example, in both the case of the Eiffle tower & the US Constitution, the fact that they are still around today shows that the core principles upon which they were designed are still relevent in todays age. If we were to rebuild the Eiffle tower today, sure we would use more modern things such as wideflange/S-Shape beams instead of I beams & flat plates, but the core design of arches and trusses would still be used. Just as if the constitution would be re-written today, sure it would be without alot of the intial fuck ups such as all the racism & sexist measures, but the core principles of inalienable rights of freedom of speech, press, etc.. & the seperation of church and state, the checks & balance of powers would all still be relavent and useful.

Ophichius
June 25 2013, 10:08:01 PM
You guys are mistaking love of country for love of the regime running the country. In the US, being patriotic means loving the *idea* of America and the ideas expressed in the Constitution. In that sense, patriotism is useful because it keeps us vigilant and engaged in public affairs. If more Americans were truly patriotic, we would've stopped this bullshit with the Patriot Act and the NSA a long time ago.

Pretty much this. I think the Constitution is among the greatest pieces of human achievement. That doesn't mean I'm particularly enraptured by the people running the government

Two hundred years ago, the constitution was a racist, sexist piece of shit. It's only good because we have continued to bring it up to our level as we progressed as a society (eg. the 14th amendment), yet we have also shat on it when we weren't so noble (eg. citizens united). Isolating the constitution from its treatment just to be able to call yourself a patriot is a technique of self-deception.

You haven't read the Constitution then. Two hundred years ago, the Constitution was no more racist or sexist than it is today. If you actually read the Constitution as it was signed, it is completely neutral on the subject of race or gender. There are certainly sections whose inclusion was racially motivated (the three-fifths compromise, as well as Article IV, section 2, para 3.), but even those are written as neutrally as possible.

In point of fact, given the prevailing attitudes at the time, the Constitution is remarkably free from overt bias of any form.

Edit: Also, what's so special about the 14th amendment? Surely you mean either the 15th (Right to vote shall not be infringed on the basis of race or current/former servitude) or 19th (Right to vote shall not be infringed on the basis of sex) amendments?

Double edit: Oh right, equal protection clause. I'm a moron.

-O

erichkknaar
July 2 2013, 04:18:30 PM
"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

Procellus
July 3 2013, 09:46:21 AM
You haven't read the Constitution then. Two hundred years ago, the Constitution was no more racist or sexist than it is today. If you actually read the Constitution as it was signed, it is completely neutral on the subject of race or gender. There are certainly sections whose inclusion was racially motivated (the three-fifths compromise, as well as Article IV, section 2, para 3.), but even those are written as neutrally as possible.

In point of fact, given the prevailing attitudes at the time, the Constitution is remarkably free from overt bias of any form.

-O

What most people don't realize about the 3/5th compromise is that it came about because the Southern states wanted to count slaves as population for the House while, naturally, not allowing them to vote. It would have given the Southern states much more power in Congress at the expense of its most exploited citizens.

On topic: Patriotism isn't bad. Many Americans don't understand why Europeans think it's so terrible. What I think is that it was the lesson that Europeans learned after World Wars I and II. Nationalism is bad (and so is its little brother Patriotism). It's why Europeans always look askance at dudes with American flag jackets.

Ophichius
July 3 2013, 10:13:01 AM
What most people don't realize about the 3/5th compromise is that it came about because the Southern states wanted to count slaves as population for the House while, naturally, not allowing them to vote. It would have given the Southern states much more power in Congress at the expense of its most exploited citizens.

On topic: Patriotism isn't bad. Many Americans don't understand why Europeans think it's so terrible. What I think is that it was the lesson that Europeans learned after World Wars I and II. Nationalism is bad (and so is its little brother Patriotism). It's why Europeans always look askance at dudes with American flag jackets.

Ironically, that's why so many Americans think patriotism is great and can't comprehend any other view of it. In US popular culture, WWII is really sort of our shining moment. We got to be the white knights for the whole world, and we did it by pulling together as Americans. Or so the narrative goes. (Ignoring or glossing over the thousands of Americans we locked up in internment camps for the high crime of having the wrong ancestors. And the institutional racism pervasive throughout the era. And the fact that we sat on our assess and let Europe get pounded to shit until the attack on Pearl Harbor.)

-O

Wrack
July 3 2013, 04:12:49 PM
You haven't read the Constitution then. Two hundred years ago, the Constitution was no more racist or sexist than it is today. If you actually read the Constitution as it was signed, it is completely neutral on the subject of race or gender. There are certainly sections whose inclusion was racially motivated (the three-fifths compromise, as well as Article IV, section 2, para 3.), but even those are written as neutrally as possible.

In point of fact, given the prevailing attitudes at the time, the Constitution is remarkably free from overt bias of any form.

-O

What most people don't realize about the 3/5th compromise is that it came about because the Southern states wanted to count slaves as population for the House while, naturally, not allowing them to vote. It would have given the Southern states much more power in Congress at the expense of its most exploited citizens.

On topic: Patriotism isn't bad. Many Americans don't understand why Europeans think it's so terrible. What I think is that it was the lesson that Europeans learned after World Wars I and II. Nationalism is bad (and so is its little brother Patriotism). It's why Europeans always look askance at dudes with American flag jackets.

The slaves were never gonna get to vote. Here's how it went down under the 3/5ths compromise: "Me and all 6 of my 10 slaves vote for William Harrison." So slave owners did want slaves to get a full vote.

Synapse
July 3 2013, 06:23:45 PM
You haven't read the Constitution then. Two hundred years ago, the Constitution was no more racist or sexist than it is today. If you actually read the Constitution as it was signed, it is completely neutral on the subject of race or gender. There are certainly sections whose inclusion was racially motivated (the three-fifths compromise, as well as Article IV, section 2, para 3.), but even those are written as neutrally as possible.

In point of fact, given the prevailing attitudes at the time, the Constitution is remarkably free from overt bias of any form.

-O

What most people don't realize about the 3/5th compromise is that it came about because the Southern states wanted to count slaves as population for the House while, naturally, not allowing them to vote. It would have given the Southern states much more power in Congress at the expense of its most exploited citizens.

On topic: Patriotism isn't bad. Many Americans don't understand why Europeans think it's so terrible. What I think is that it was the lesson that Europeans learned after World Wars I and II. Nationalism is bad (and so is its little brother Patriotism). It's why Europeans always look askance at dudes with American flag jackets.

Strongly agree on negative results of nationalism and patriotism. The results can take a century to show themselves but the end result is an inability to deal with your international peers.

Cassiuss
July 16 2013, 07:28:30 PM
"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

^ This is what you call an end-game quote. Lock fred. Game over.

+1

Rudolf Miller
July 17 2013, 01:17:44 AM
What most people don't realize about the 3/5th compromise is that it came about because the Southern states wanted to count slaves as population for the House while, naturally, not allowing them to vote. It would have given the Southern states much more power in Congress at the expense of its most exploited citizens.

On topic: Patriotism isn't bad. Many Americans don't understand why Europeans think it's so terrible. What I think is that it was the lesson that Europeans learned after World Wars I and II. Nationalism is bad (and so is its little brother Patriotism). It's why Europeans always look askance at dudes with American flag jackets.

Ironically, that's why so many Americans think patriotism is great and can't comprehend any other view of it. In US popular culture, WWII is really sort of our shining moment. We got to be the white knights for the whole world, and we did it by pulling together as Americans. Or so the narrative goes. (Ignoring or glossing over the thousands of Americans we locked up in internment camps for the high crime of having the wrong ancestors. And the institutional racism pervasive throughout the era. And the fact that we sat on our assess and let Europe get pounded to shit until the attack on Pearl Harbor.)

-O

This. WWII is basically the hardening concrete in youth social studies classes in the US (at least it was when I was a kid) that enforced the America fuck yah patriotic attitude.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Lallante
July 19 2013, 03:56:44 PM
Important for what? Why should I care more about another person living 300 miles away in my country than someone I have far more in common with a mere 30 miles away over a border?

Shin_getter
July 22 2013, 12:27:53 AM
.
.
Goodness must come from the bureaucracy~ all hail the bureaucracy and its numerous rules The current web of red tape is derived from the first government whose powers has been granted by the almighty, whose original rules for complete governance ended barbarity and deprivation and ushered in the golden age of civilization, where the people are moral, the wars were just, the social relations harmonious, the wealth properly distributed and great works are created.

However the reactionary terrorists, individualists, and jealous rival bureaucracies have successfully deprived us of this truly righteous heritage. They have undermined the people's belief in the one true bureaucracy and the function of the state is at a low point. What was once order is now chaos as harmful ideas spread and impedes the great goals and plans designed by the bureaucracy, which is the only light in the darkness of the world that gives us direction and shall lead us to the future! This all the while the brutal and evil healthcare and old age pension schemes imposed by the hostile foreign sources being the true cancer on this planet and must be exterminated for the greater good of the people and the state. Great harm is being inflicted by the dangerous foreign evils of value added tax, monetarists central bank policy, and singular chamber of elected representatives.

We the sane, the brave, the wise and the just must stand united in the greater cause of powerful governance. A true man must stand behind the lobbyists, the 3rd court of appeals, the internal revenue service and we shall fight against the threat to our true institutions. We have the men, we have the money and we have the weapons. We shall fight them in expeditions. We shall fight them in the sea. We shall fight them on the beaches. We shall fight them in the fields and streets. We shall fight them on the hills! We shall fight them everywhere! We shall never surrender! Man, Serve Your Duties!

There is no greater honor then dying for the nation! Defend the century old legal structure drafted by wealthy landowners that seized power in a self serving manner!

Sacul
July 24 2013, 03:48:58 PM
Important for what? Why should I care more about another person living 300 miles away in my country than someone I have far more in common with a mere 30 miles away over a border?

Its not a matter of care MORE. Its a matter of caring at all. I suppose you do a bit but most on this forum dont give a shit.
I think hat patriotism is a decent thing as a group builder for a nation, but it can get out of hand fast and patriotism goes to elistism either racial or purely national which is retarded. I live in a country where it was frowned upon to call yourself dutch for allmost a decade (nineties) that backswinged into if you aint dutch you are against us. Both are equally retarded.
Personally i am not that proud to be dutch as i dont think my country has done anything special in the time i am alive. The past is something different offcourse.
I do however feel some pride in being a member of the EU on purely historical grounds (degrees in polisci and history so no surprises aye), that standpoint atm is like taking a dump in the halls of parliament. But whatever fads will be fads.

The USA version of patriotism is imo a bit retarded if you focus on certain groups like the rednecks but also the art crew from the costal cities. The usa isnt all that in popular speak and its certainly not the end all.

Then again the most fervent and racist nationalist people i ever met were chinese. Kingdom of the middle earth lol

Keorythe
July 25 2013, 02:55:27 AM
Patriotism is just another form of community identity and idealism. The soul of it is being proud of what the country should represent. Trying to equate patriotism with nationalism is a poorly thought out argument. Resistance groups throughout German and occupied territories during WWI and II both believed themselves to be patriots and were fighting for their ideal belief of what it represented. Patriotism isn't changed by nationalism. It's the other way around. Patriotism is when someone assists with the formation or sustainment of national goals and ideals. WWII gained more ground due to conditions in the country which let the National Socialist German Workers' Party flourish and push their version of patriotism. It took a concerted propaganda effort to make fighting in WWII a patriotic duty especially when the US stood to gain little from the European side than enough ground to bury it's dead while depleting its high yield hematite iron ore deposits within a decade and a half, and seeing no real return from payments of lend-lease since it was US govt. subsidized below the cost to make. Would there have been "if you're driving alone, you're driving with Hitler" posters made if Japan had not formally become part of the Axis? I honestly don't know.

I've always found it odd that those who chide on patriotism are often the first to swell their chest when some new article describes their country in a positive light. Freedom index, NHS, better economy growth, military does something.


stuff

Sir, that belongs in general chat. At least attempt to argue a point.

Shin_getter
July 25 2013, 04:37:38 AM
Patriotism is ultimately a personal feeling, not a generalizable idea or ideal. Discussing whether there should be patriotism is like discussing whether people should like boobs. Its gonna happen anyways regardless of result.

To have patriotism, one needs that particular group identity, the sense of pride and a specific set of moral instincts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Foundations_Theory). People without them can not and will not feel patriotism no matter how much it is promoted, and none of the above is automatic nor necessary for healthy human functioning.

--
Some patriotism promoters think patriotism serves greater, other moral functions like reducing the harm inflicted on other people and likes. I will just say that is wrong, since people that hold those values directly will do the right thing without needing patriotism. You don't need patriotism to know a racist aggressive imperialist regime bent on violent expansion at immense cost of human suffering needs to be destroyed, for example.

Some patriots wants to take account of the advantages of modern state as result of their type of feeling, however that is also wrong. My previous post talks about the actual operation of the state, and it is the smooth and efficient operation of the state that provides good results like order and economic growth. The fictive-kinship with other members is not required, as we can see from the success of immigrant, history-less countries like Canada or Singapore. Most patriots identify with a imaginary people but not the regime, when it is the latter the actually produce results.

Patriotism is useful for the establishment of a strong centralized state in places that lack them, and centralized state is better for long run wealth and development due to economies of scale and reduction in lower scaled violence, so it is not naturally harmful or something. (in that sense, a humanist will support establishment of states, however a tribalist would not) In the context of interconnected developed world it does not seem to do anything particularly useful.

--
In terms of figuring out people, the state tag is useful, but not as useful as personality inventories, education attainment or socioeconomic/ethnoculture background, none of which is neatly divided by modern borders.

ValorousBob
July 26 2013, 05:36:11 PM
"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

^ This is what you call an end-game quote. Lock fred. Game over.

+1

I like that quote, but no. Patriotism isn't about the current state of your country, it's about your belief in contributing to your country. Americans who believe the US is the best country in the world are stupid. Americans who believe we should strive to be the best country in the world are patriots. To me, patriotism is about holding your country to a higher standard because you care about it.

cullnean
July 29 2013, 03:42:41 AM
Is patriotism obsolete?

Nope.

Rudolf Miller
July 29 2013, 12:05:00 PM
Is patriotism obsolete?

Nope.

Phone reppin. This distinction is lost on a great many.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Nordstern
March 25 2014, 09:30:35 PM
Posting because it's relevant and I don't want this sub-forum to DIE.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zqOYBabXmA

ValorousBob
April 19 2014, 06:06:47 PM
Yup, Will is a patriot IMO because he cares about the quality of the country as a whole, and not just himself. If you don't give a fuck about your peers or your community and just look out for yourself, you're not a patriot.