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Jalif
March 19 2013, 04:19:40 PM
Discuss here everything regarding codes and engines (unity & allegro). Lets discuss how we are going to tackle the back end and how light effects are going to be implemented which are a big deal for our game.

GITHUB:
https://github.com/failheap/Scrapheap-Starships

Dark Flare
March 19 2013, 07:57:34 PM
while(fuck):
print "fuck";

Blutreiter
March 19 2013, 08:02:03 PM
while(fuck):
print "fuck";

That wasn't exactly what he meant with tackling back ends.

Blutreiter
March 19 2013, 11:39:41 PM
Since Unity does not properly support dynamical lights and shadows unless you pay for a professional license (which is expensive), we are currently looking into other engines. We might still use Allegro which Helgur has experience with, but that would not be 3d. That said, 3d is not a requirement. Dynamic lighting is of the highest importance for the gameplay though.

Jalif
March 19 2013, 11:42:44 PM
Since Unity does not properly support dynamical lights and shadows unless you pay for a professional license (which is expensive), we are currently looking into other engines. We might still use Allegro which Helgur has experience with, but that would not be 3d. That said, 3d is not a requirement. Dynamic lighting is of the highest importance for the gameplay though.

That is indeed our bottleneck now. We need to find something that can handle dynamic lights well. If it is a 3d engine it should have the option to use a 2d camara. 2d Engines need a smart light system.

Going back to Ethanon Engine:
http://ethanonengine.com
2d and intergrated 2d dynamic lights. Engine is still in development but it has all the basics we need. Think it is time to take a look at it again. Sample:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcAZAgychRw&feature=player_embedded

This might be interesting as well, something that could be intergraded into allegro?:
http://forums.gamedesigncenter.org/viewtopic.php?t=200

& Something else:
http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/technical/game-programming/razorblades-isometric-dynamic-lighting-alg-r749

Blutreiter
March 20 2013, 12:37:15 AM
https://www.allegro.cc/forums/thread/610626

Jalif
March 20 2013, 08:00:04 AM
nice find blu!

Cool09
March 20 2013, 02:13:54 PM
Just a clarification... if it's going to be a 2d game there's no such thing as "an engine that supports dynamic lighting." As that link shows, it's simple enough you just code it yourself. 3d is a whole different can of worms so built-in lighting is a thing.

Has any thought been given to XNA? I've used it before in game dev courses and found it pretty easy to get into as there are TONS of resources available for it (tutorials, tools, ect). I made a sidescroller megaman clone in about a month of student free time. Very convenient to get into, you can create a new project and it will actually run (blue screen though) right off the bat.

Games that have used it include Bastion, magica, spacechem, terraria, many others. It's C#, and free unless you want to develop for xbox.

Jalif
March 20 2013, 02:57:33 PM
Just a clarification... if it's going to be a 2d game there's no such thing as "an engine that supports dynamic lighting." As that link shows, it's simple enough you just code it yourself. 3d is a whole different can of worms so built-in lighting is a thing.

Has any thought been given to XNA? I've used it before in game dev courses and found it pretty easy to get into as there are TONS of resources available for it (tutorials, tools, ect). I made a sidescroller megaman clone in about a month of student free time. Very convenient to get into, you can create a new project and it will actually run (blue screen though) right off the bat.

Games that have used it include Bastion, magica, spacechem, terraria, many others. It's C#, and free unless you want to develop for xbox.

Will google it... EDIT: Can't really figure out, seems they have a lot of engines, could you give a link?

Don't want to help out :)?

arian snow
March 20 2013, 03:19:52 PM
Can us coders set a meeting at some point, perhaps on Skype or Vent, would be nice to gauge how much time people actually have, determine version control ethics, and abilities (magical and otherwise relevant) etc.

Cheers.

Blutreiter
March 20 2013, 03:22:27 PM
Just a clarification... if it's going to be a 2d game there's no such thing as "an engine that supports dynamic lighting." As that link shows, it's simple enough you just code it yourself. 3d is a whole different can of worms so built-in lighting is a thing.

Has any thought been given to XNA? I've used it before in game dev courses and found it pretty easy to get into as there are TONS of resources available for it (tutorials, tools, ect). I made a sidescroller megaman clone in about a month of student free time. Very convenient to get into, you can create a new project and it will actually run (blue screen though) right off the bat.

Games that have used it include Bastion, magica, spacechem, terraria, many others. It's C#, and free unless you want to develop for xbox.
XNA - not looked into it yet. But so far we were assuming that we would work inside a 3d engine and simply work from birds eye with a 2d representation, which would have made dynamic lights possible.

That idea crashed and burned when we saw that we would have had to fork cash over for these features... and Allegro is a decent choice so far because Helgur has experience with it.

Cool09
March 20 2013, 04:32:32 PM
/agree with arian, the relevant people need to sit down and nail out the details before anything can be done.

After reading the design document I'm interested in helping out. EST time zone here...

erichkknaar
March 20 2013, 05:12:41 PM
I'm not sure how you guys came to the conclusion that you can't do dynamic lighting with unity free, but that is not the case. What you pay for is unity's proprietary system of light probes and automatically rendered dynamic shadows, which saves time. Nothing is stopping the implementation of a shadow system in unity free, because you have pretty low level access to the rendering pipeline. I'm not sure exactly what you want to do with shadows, but in a 2d game, there are probably easier ways to implement a shadow system anyway. It would probably be an equivalent amount of effort no matter which engine was chosen.

That said, I will help where I can no matter what the engine. I just think it should be a longer and deeper conversation than "engine X is in language Y so lets use that". Workflow and support for non coding team members needs to be carefully weighed as well.

EDIT: I'm assuming this is kind of what we want from shadows?

http://unitycoder.com/blog/2012/01/04/fake-realtime-raycast-shadows-unity3d/

Implemented in Unity free.

helgur
March 20 2013, 05:23:26 PM
Just a clarification... if it's going to be a 2d game there's no such thing as "an engine that supports dynamic lighting." As that link shows, it's simple enough you just code it yourself. 3d is a whole different can of worms so built-in lighting is a thing.

Has any thought been given to XNA? I've used it before in game dev courses and found it pretty easy to get into as there are TONS of resources available for it (tutorials, tools, ect). I made a sidescroller megaman clone in about a month of student free time. Very convenient to get into, you can create a new project and it will actually run (blue screen though) right off the bat.

Games that have used it include Bastion, magica, spacechem, terraria, many others. It's C#, and free unless you want to develop for xbox.

XNA is not applicable as it is windows/ms platform only.

helgur
March 20 2013, 05:29:36 PM
Can us coders set a meeting at some point, perhaps on Skype or Vent, would be nice to gauge how much time people actually have, determine version control ethics, and abilities (magical and otherwise relevant) etc.

Cheers.

I'm all up for this, I am available for a meeting tomorrow 1600-2400 GMT!

arian snow
March 20 2013, 08:53:16 PM
Can us coders set a meeting at some point, perhaps on Skype or Vent, would be nice to gauge how much time people actually have, determine version control ethics, and abilities (magical and otherwise relevant) etc.

Cheers.

I'm all up for this, I am available for a meeting tomorrow 1600-2400 GMT!

Okay, great I'll be online there, Blu is making us use skype btw, I will share my details on IRC in the morning.

arian snow
March 20 2013, 09:25:03 PM
What version of Allegro should I get?

helgur
March 20 2013, 10:46:55 PM
Latest (5.0.8)

If you are on windows you just need to download the binaries, if you are on a mac or linux, you need to build the binaries yourself.

Edit: If anyone need help getting allegro up and running on your platform doing this don't be shy to ask for help. Join IRC or post your questions here and I will try to answer to the best of my ability

Jalif
March 20 2013, 10:48:54 PM
What do you think of the light system Helgur, could you build it?

helgur
March 21 2013, 12:01:16 AM
I haven't done any opengl programming in Allegro before and as such that is a learning experience for me. But I am confident I can make it work, yeah. Just don't expect me to pull anything out of the hat in an instant :P

IceBlock
March 21 2013, 06:28:31 AM
There is always OpenTK and MonoGame that are cross platform.
http://www.opentk.com/
http://www.monogame.net/

Blutreiter
March 21 2013, 11:56:15 AM
reference for later:
http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/technical/graphics-programming-and-theory/dynamic-2d-soft-shadows-r2032

helgur
March 21 2013, 12:14:06 PM
Nice find! :)

Jalif
March 21 2013, 12:40:28 PM
I linked that a page earlier :P

Renox
March 21 2013, 05:12:05 PM
Has there been a decision on which way we go with engines and the like?

Jalif
March 21 2013, 05:41:35 PM
Has there been a decision on which way we go with engines and the like?

For the moment Allegro and Helgur is on it. He has experiance with it and building up a prototype. He is currently working on some basic graphics that we provided and a map. Next step will be getting dynamic lighting in 2d. From there we will see and if we need to adjust the goals. Also ariansnow is helping Helgur a bit. They are also the only two coders.

Sponk
March 25 2013, 09:01:55 AM
What about Starling (http://gamua.com/starling/) or Sparrow (http://gamua.com/sparrow/)? I hear someone made a popular game using them. Something about birds.

Jalif
March 25 2013, 09:03:47 AM
We are sticking with Allegro for now.

Dark Flare
March 25 2013, 11:11:21 AM
So I completely forgot about this. Putting it as a subforum in a subforum evidently removed it from my field of vision.

Sup

Rami
March 25 2013, 01:08:03 PM
*poke* First time I've seen this at all. I have openGL coding experience, and might be able to devote some coding time (I've gotten bored of GeoJSON now).

helgur
March 25 2013, 04:39:06 PM
*poke* First time I've seen this at all. I have openGL coding experience, and might be able to devote some coding time (I've gotten bored of GeoJSON now).

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?11277-Allegro-thread

In that thread you will find the link to the code repository and history of what has been implemented yet, take a look at the code. If you have any suggestions for the allegro code please feel free to post them there

Also you having openGL coding experience will come very handy. Each tile of the map is set at 200x200 pixels, generating a 30x30 map I can allready notice the strain on my rig and a slight but noticable framerate drop when running the game. I am going to have to look into Allegros opengl routines in order to implement hardware acceleration, because currently it won't be very playable with bigger maps.

Blutreiter
March 25 2013, 04:48:10 PM
*poke* First time I've seen this at all. I have openGL coding experience, and might be able to devote some coding time (I've gotten bored of GeoJSON now).

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?11277-Allegro-thread

In that thread you will find the link to the code repository and history of what has been implemented yet, take a look at the code. If you have any suggestions for the allegro code please feel free to post them there

Also you having openGL coding experience will come very handy. Each tile of the map is set at 200x200 pixels, generating a 30x30 map I can allready notice the strain on my rig and a slight but noticable framerate drop when running the game. I am going to have to look into Allegros opengl routines in order to implement hardware acceleration, because currently it won't be very playable with bigger maps.

Are all tiles rendered nonstop or can you only render those that are on-screen?

helgur
March 25 2013, 04:52:28 PM
*poke* First time I've seen this at all. I have openGL coding experience, and might be able to devote some coding time (I've gotten bored of GeoJSON now).

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?11277-Allegro-thread

In that thread you will find the link to the code repository and history of what has been implemented yet, take a look at the code. If you have any suggestions for the allegro code please feel free to post them there

Also you having openGL coding experience will come very handy. Each tile of the map is set at 200x200 pixels, generating a 30x30 map I can allready notice the strain on my rig and a slight but noticable framerate drop when running the game. I am going to have to look into Allegros opengl routines in order to implement hardware acceleration, because currently it won't be very playable with bigger maps.

Are all tiles rendered nonstop or can you only render those that are on-screen?

All tiles are rendered nonstop

edit: well rendered is maybe the wrong term, the positions of every tile is recalculated and updated at every cycle, which in theory means 60 times a second (I've capped the engine at 60 FPS), but every cycle is also queued by the event system in order for things to run more smoothly.

I'll work on zooming using the mouse wheel and +/- keyboard keys next

Qwert
March 25 2013, 09:44:12 PM
*poke* First time I've seen this at all. I have openGL coding experience, and might be able to devote some coding time (I've gotten bored of GeoJSON now).

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?11277-Allegro-thread

In that thread you will find the link to the code repository and history of what has been implemented yet, take a look at the code. If you have any suggestions for the allegro code please feel free to post them there

Also you having openGL coding experience will come very handy. Each tile of the map is set at 200x200 pixels, generating a 30x30 map I can allready notice the strain on my rig and a slight but noticable framerate drop when running the game. I am going to have to look into Allegros opengl routines in order to implement hardware acceleration, because currently it won't be very playable with bigger maps.

Any reason for non-power of 2 tile sizes?

helgur
March 25 2013, 09:58:12 PM
*poke* First time I've seen this at all. I have openGL coding experience, and might be able to devote some coding time (I've gotten bored of GeoJSON now).

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?11277-Allegro-thread

In that thread you will find the link to the code repository and history of what has been implemented yet, take a look at the code. If you have any suggestions for the allegro code please feel free to post them there

Also you having openGL coding experience will come very handy. Each tile of the map is set at 200x200 pixels, generating a 30x30 map I can allready notice the strain on my rig and a slight but noticable framerate drop when running the game. I am going to have to look into Allegros opengl routines in order to implement hardware acceleration, because currently it won't be very playable with bigger maps.

Any reason for non-power of 2 tile sizes?

Not particulary no, that is the dimensions of the png jalif sent me, it can be changed later to accommodate other tiles in different sizes. Allthough the walls/doors etc will be coded as thin primitives centered in the tiles themselves

Jalif
March 27 2013, 11:49:35 PM
how is stuff going?

helgur
March 28 2013, 02:17:06 AM
how is stuff going?

Testing out some basic openGL hardware acceleration. Managed to get the game running p. smooth, even with big maps

Has anyone else who said they where interested in coding this downloaded the source and/or looked into allegro API?

Edit: we need to talk about starting to push out some sprites for the level(s), next time we talk on irc or skype I'll run you guys down with how you can edit the texture datafile (so you can push new graphics into the engine without needing to code).

Jalif
March 28 2013, 09:11:22 AM
Sweet!

EDIT:
Did you also make a progress with light system? Anyway, I'm all day at home working and will be availible at IRC. Just poke me and we can have a "meeting" on how stuff stands atm. Sadly didn't have the time myself this week to write some documents on how the game will perform.

Hast
March 31 2013, 10:13:06 PM
I can probably put in some coding time. Not much experience with game development, but at least I know how to code.

I'll look at allegro and development environment tomorrow when I get home.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

helgur
April 1 2013, 07:19:32 AM
I can probably put in some coding time. Not much experience with game development, but at least I know how to code.

I'll look at allegro and development environment tomorrow when I get home.


Nice! Myself I am using bog standard Visual Studio Express 10 on windows and xcode on mac

Hast
April 1 2013, 10:54:26 AM
Just realised that you went with the c++ alternative, then the can code bit becomes relative. :p I'll still check it out though.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

helgur
April 1 2013, 11:50:05 AM
Allegro is C, I just ++'ed it

Blutreiter
April 20 2013, 12:15:56 PM
http://donjon.bin.sh/dungeon/about/
Dungeon Generation Algorhythm

http://forums.epicgames.com/threads/933482-Jigsaw-Map-Piece-Semi-random-maps-is-it-possible/page2
Good info on randomized maps inside UDK

Blutreiter
July 5 2013, 10:24:01 PM
Fuck UDK, fuck the rest.

I am now creating grids in Unity. Teaching myself from scratch step by step. Since the original project is pretty much gone the way of the Lemming, I figured I will continue on my own, let's see how far I will come.

Nicholai Pestot
July 6 2013, 07:22:29 PM
Fuck UDK, fuck the rest.

I am now creating grids in Unity. Teaching myself from scratch step by step. Since the original project is pretty much gone the way of the Lemming, I figured I will continue on my own, let's see how far I will come.

Good call. It's well worth it.